Have to say that I am suprised that no one has commented on the Russian excursion into Georgia over the past 6 days, any thoughts guy's? Personaly I dont think we should stand back and let Russia extinguish Georgian freedom and dont forget Georgia has been our allie in the mid east when Russia has played games.
Steve, Russia is still trying to be the bully-boy of the former U.S.S.R..By invading Georgia & backing the 2 illegal entities that are Abkhazia & South Ossetia,Russia has damaged its standing in the international community. President Mikheil Saakashvili is right.Russia needs to be taught a few lessons,including being taught that occupying parts of independent countries (Georgia & Moldova) & interfering in the internal affairs of these countries is morally & legally wrong. Georgia is going to be pulling out of the Commonwealth of Independent States,& will try again to join N.A.T.O. as a protective measure. Aidan.
Would you support US troops going into direct military engagement with russian forces. There will be American deaths, could the liberal section of the nation stomach it?Would the left wing radicals undermine it?
I do not believe it would be wise for the USA to send anymore troops than are already there, currently about 125 or so training Georgian forces. But... this is the big big butt... Nothing stops us from sending C-17s in loaded with tanks, AA missiles, etc. Their AF has largely been destroyed, but it was mostly Soviet era SU-25 attack AC etc. and was rather outdated. Now I think they need advanced F-16. I will be travelling to Ukraine in about 6 weeks from now, Ukraine is firmly behind Georgia, and even is currently blocking the Russians from returning their naval vessels to the leased port of Sevastopol. Ukraine may well tell Russia to shove it and take all their naval facilities out. The Russian port at Sevastopol has been a sore point ever since the government of Leonid Kuchma leased it to them in 1995. The lease doesn't run out until 2017, but can be abrogated by either party. President Viktor Yushchenko and Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko are very much pro-western pro EU, and pro NATO. People in E. Europe want to be a part of Europe, not a part of Russia. A few years ago, flying from Kyiv, Ukraine to Warsaw, Poland, I was stunned by how modern Warsaw had become. Practically all vestiges of communism had been wiped away like filth. The only notable reminder was the Palace of the People, a Stalinesque skyscraper that dominates the skyline in Warsaw. Ukraine, Romania, Bulgaria very very much want to follow Poland's lead, just as do the Georgians. They want prosperity, freedom, and the right to happiness. "We are all Georgians now!"
We could try to boost up Poland but let us not forget as well that we can not let russia not have a sphere of influence, China wants all of Asia and a foothold in Africa and Middle East, Russia wants Eastern Europe, at least nations that were once part of the Russia Empire which would include half of Poland as well as a foothold in the middle east. If you want to be a superpower you need to have a sphere.
Chill Isa it's a statement and sarcastic one at that. Still there is some meat to it. Are Georgians or Russians being touted as terrorotists here in the good ole U S of A? Do we really even look that hard? Probably so but it's much easier to tie an Iraq with a whacked out Sadaam to WMD, terrorism etc.. Now he's gone but we're still there. A much easier and popular target to attack. Would I support US troops going into direct military engagement with Russian forces? Yes, I would actually. Contrary to what some people believe I respect and support our troops WHETHER OR NOT I AGREE WITH THE REASON THEY ARE THERE. So let's put more troops in action if we have to. One tiny problem that has been pointed out many times. We need troops to do this. Russia was a war machine for decades. WE were not. They have more experience. People are not lining up to die here. Think I'm lying? Just so happens I have a good friend that is an Army Recruiter. They've been running his butt ragged to find recruits. Not going real well for him I'm afraid. So again I support our troops 100%. However, we can ill afford to spread them around. How would you suggest we solve this problem be it from the left, right or center? Conscription is an option albeit an unpopular one.
Nothing says that USA personnel need to be there, except that short period of time it takes to offload Patriot missiles, Abrams tanks, etc. BTW just for the record, the USAF did much combat in Korea, with DPRK marked MIG-15's with curiously European looking pilots. It is now known that the VVS(USSR AF) piloted A/C's with DPRK markings. They only flew over the territory they controlled, that way if they were downed they weren't revealed. But the US Navy tracked MIGs flying from Vladivostok in the USSR into the combat zone, of course with DPRK markings. This was kept from the public, neither the USA nor the USSR wanted to publicise this. So, the US has engaged in combat with USSR/Russian forces before.
Good to have you around here Scottish, you seem to understand this better than most. I myself really don;t know what the F is going on over there but it scares the hell out of me.
Not a secret, not just well known. Russia and the United States has fought each other in the past using proxy nations and at times having "advisors" in place. And I see where you are going, it reminds me of the 1973 war where nixon send tow type missles to israel to stop the soviet T-72 tanks. The difference is that Israel helped the US develop the tow missle and had troops trained in it in the US before the Yom Kipper war. There is no way that the Georigian armed forces can handle Patroit missles and we are not going to have american troops arm them for it would be like russian troops in mexico shooting down american planes at our border. The USSR is dead, Putin and the KGB are filling the void that was created by that death. It has been his goal to give teeth back to the Russian Bear for years as shown in his speeches to the youth.
We have the greatest war machine the world has ever seen. China has the manpower and is trying to catch up in the weapons department, aided by the Clinton administration with Loral industries, but we still have it on and below the sea, in the air and space, and on the ground. It is a shame that instead of being proud of it there are elements in this nation that attack it and seek to destroy it from within. As far as modern day terrorism. Russia invented it in the middle east and trained most of the fractions there going up to the Afgan war. But even with the greatest war machine, we would be foolish to have direct contact with russia in a nation that is on there border. Think of my mexican example above and think about how things can escalate and get out of control.
Sorry, it was not the Soviets that aided and abetted the Afghan rebels that evolved into the Taliban, with their Al Qaeda allies. It was the United States, through the CIA that funnelled money, arms, missiles etc. to those "rebels" aka "freedom fighters". The problem the Russians and later the Americans found with the Afghan fighters is that they are not consistently loyal, their alliances come and go with the wind. So they were with the USA as long as it was to their benefit, but once the Soviets were defeated and packed up and went home in 1989, and the Taliban and Al Qaeda consolidated their power, and developed their fundamentalist doctrines, they turned against the power that had spoon fed them in the first place, and attacked it. Curiously whilst Russia and the USA are not on the same side in the Georgian/Polish/Ukrainian thing, you can bet that the Talibs and the Al Qaeda like neither Russia or the USA. They are after Russian because of the Chechen war, and are believed to have funnelled money, arms etc. into that conflict. There is somewhat of a gross misconception on the part of the western press that the Chechen conflict is a freedom fight, when in fact they are nothing more than terrorists that have blown up apartment blocks, blown passenger planes out of the sky, attacked subways and theatres in Russia and killed literally hundreds. Oh, and remember Beslan school.
Certainly won't argue that Isa. We DO have some awesome "toys" and we don't want a direct conflict with the Russians. The problem I see, in this day and age, is if we start really using those weapons. It could quickly become a damned if you do and damned if you don't situation. A worldwide escalation is something I hope none of us live to see.
The 1972, Black September Group, PLO, PLA, Libya, Syria and for a while Egypt going back to the 1950's there were soviet training camps in Russia, East Germany, and Bulgria in plane hi-jacking, plastic explosives, car bombs-a syrian favorite, assualt teams for bank/airport/small neighborhood training-ask the Christians who had to flee the mountains because of that in Leb. etc...The soviets even trained the Pakai's who trained the Tabian. Our role was greatly blown out of place with the Tabian. We did arm them with point and shoot weapons to take out the russian helicopters, just like the russians did to us in Vietnam. You know alot Scottish Money and I am sure if we were able to sit down and talk we find that for the most part we are on the same page where we want to do more but as clemo stated have to be careful not to have things get worse on by making a regional conflict into a global conflict and making someone we need as a "part time" ally into a full time foe.
It is a known fact that those early terrorists were in fact trained IN THE USSR, now what is known as Uzbekistan. They would fly Palestinians over there for training and indoctrination, but that was where the Soviets fudged up, they were indoctrinating Muslims in socialist ideals, and they didn't pick up too overly well on that. The programme on the whole was a failure for the Soviets. The main body of the PLO was largely financed through that almighty American ally, Saudi Arabia, and Egypt. The PFLP, Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine was a much more radical, and semi socialist organisation that did in fact receive funding, training etc. from the Soviets, but while they did perform acts of terrorism, they bungled a lot more than they ever accomplished. But all changed in 1978 when the Soviets engineered the coup that toppled the rulers that took over in Afghanistan in 1973 when the King was overthrown. They supported the coup, then when that leader was assassinated in 1979, and the whole operation was falling apart, the Soviets "invited" themselves in to prop the government they installed there. The effect of the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan dramatically changed Arab, and the Muslim world's opinion of the USSR and for the Soviets was a huge public relations disaster for all those previous covert programmes they had going. Oh sure, Iraq and Syria and soon Iran armed themselves with Soviet arms, aircrafts etc. but they didn't care for the Soviets and their Allahless socialism anymore than they cared for American democracy. In a way these third tier states played the superpowers against one another and usually ended up on the taking end of things. Iraq still owes for Soviet arms from the 1980's war, Russia and Russian firms will never be paid, and in fact that started when the war with Iran ended in 1988. Russia more or less gave the green light for action against Iraq in 1991 because of the debt, and the thought that it would never be paid, so why should they keep the arms - when the Americans could destroy them and punish the Iraqis? Beginning in 1980 the "liberation" and terrorist organisations had a huge period of adjustment, they had to keep up their anti-Israel stuff, and occasionally pop against the Americans, but they knew the bigger threat by then was not the Americans, it was the Soviets. In their minds, Iran would go next, then on into the Arabian peninsula, and of course Afghanistan was the front lines of the conflict. Whilst still occasioning a token number of attacks against Israel, and things like the Achille Lauro hijacking, the bigger emphasis was dealing with defeating Soviet socialist ambitions in the Arab world, of course this meant dealing with the Great Satan, as Iran referred to the USA as, but they could pick off the commies first, then go after the yankees afterwards. And folks, that is what happened. They, with American training, American supplied Stinger anti-aircraft missiles, funding etc. defeated the infidel Soviets by 1988... job done, now back on track... lets go get those infidel yankees again.
Once again I quite agree with what you have just said and would like to again point out that one of the largest funders of Isslamic terrorism is our good pal Saudi Arabia, yet we continualy tadie up to them!!
