Friendly question for all athiests (and those that are having a tough time believing)

I disagree, history often time not only remembers the vanquished but ends up on their side...

To say the new or old testament is historical in the same way as even the admittedly poor and often biased historians of Rome is far fetch to say the least. No one knows who really wrote these stories and if they are who they say they are, many are people who were followers of a religious figure calling himself god. A more biased account one could not find and I am sorry there is very little evidence that proves anything having to do with Jesus and his miracles.

Its not the same as Nero, millions of people lived under his rule, every historian of the time as well as Roman governmental records attest to his existence...much of what he did IS in question...did he burn Rome? who knows....but there is no doubt he existed and no doubt he ruled Rome and no doubt he ended up not being the best ruler.

I am not saying Jesus didn't exist, I have a feeling he probably did. I am saying that his story is religious mythos...the same as Hercules (who was also the son of god), Perseus, Romulus and Remus, etc etc....

The fact of the matter is one must look at not only the time but the area of the world this all happened, the person writing the account, what else that person wrote, etc..etc... Rising from the dead, walking on water, healing the sick, etc..etc...these defy reality and logic...the only way I could ever believe such things happened would be to see it myself, like those lucky people who lived back then and weren't expected to make a leap of faith.

If these were mundane historical writings I would still be very skeptical. When I studied Caligula, I was very skeptical about parts of his history and life and I do indeed question any account from an ancient historian, often times they are looking to tell a good story more than telling it like it is.

The tales of the bible are fantastic in nature and beyond what I have seen to be possible in the real world. The only way I would believe such things could be real is if I witnessed such acts, but alas...the ancients were lucky, they didnt have to believe as they saw it...now I must believe second hand accounts of his followers?

sorry, I agree that there is some basis for reality in the bible and I believe the bible has a lot it can teach us and if Jesus lived and said what they say he said, he was far ahead of his time, quite wise in some areas...

I will no more believe that Jesus was the son of god than I would that Zeus came to earth, had sex with human females who gave birth to demi-gods....same concept...different story.

There is a reason why religious leaders say one must 'believe' or have 'faith'. It because what is writen is completely remove from reality and logic would tell anyone its crazy, completely outside the bounds of reason. If I told people (and even had witnesses' that I rose fro the dead would you believe me? Or would you think I was crazy...I think you would call me (or most anyone else) crazy...why is Jesus any different?

 

Jesus exisited. There was a famous jewish historian who fought the romans and later wrote for them who wrote about it. No miracles, thru. As for the quote, "vanquished but ends up on their side", with all due respect I would have to disagree with just looking at this time period as an example. Roman conquered Israel. Placed a Roman Governor and Israel tribal foes as priests and administrators. These same people killed millions of jewish revolters over time but when Christianity whose early followers met in jewish temples and were jewish became the roman religion, well slight but importent changes were made and omissions done.

 

I meant that often history will paint the loser in sympathetic terms....like colonialism, another would be the victorious Roman Empire vilified in their actions against weaker foes. Those who win the battle have NOT assured themselves the right of writing the history. Vikings didnt write the history though they were often the victor. They have been viewed as both misunderstood, not so bad to unstoppable berserkers with no redeeming values. Win or lose, often the truth is seen more clearly from afar when one is removed from the event and the time and you can look at it objectively, others, the truth is so apparent to all through history.

As for non Christian historical text attesting to the existence of Jesus Christ, there is very little if any contemporary historians. A few Roman historians speak of the Christians as a problem, they mention who they have heard they follow, and Josephus, a jewish roman citizen and writer makes mention of Jesus but this is also thought to possibly be of a later origin. But again, I tend to believe someone called Jesus existed simply because I do not think a religious movement would have started around just the tales, there was probably a man, or group of men at the center of the movement.

In the end it is left to us to figure out what has been written in the past is true or holds some truth, and what is fantasy, myth, tall tales, etc...

For example the emperor Maximinus was supposed to be a very large man....this is probably true, but some historians are biased towards him because he is a Thracian (a barbarian) so they paint him as a beast telling tall tales that today seem outlandish...there are many historians that would pretty much report every rumor, every snippet of info regardless of its validity. So in all history one must wade through the 'Augustus then descended to the heavens and the people witnessed it and he was proclaimed a god.' type passages.

I think he existed, but in the end one must have faith that these fantastic feats attributed to him really happened, and that he is the son of god. That his how all religions are in the end, unless you are one of the lucky ones that have seen some form of proof. In my world, people do not rise from the dead, its a thing I must see to believe and the very few contemporary sources to his actual deeds outside scripture, and I do mean few... like one and that doesnt get very specific, do not give me any more reason to believe these stories.

 

BTW...I went to the dentist today (no cavities) and they had watchtowers to read. The one I read was giving the case for the existence of Noah, that he repopulated the earth, lived a few thousand years before the creation of man (we were never cavemen), and how he and others then live to be 900 years old.

 

I find it that people are simple minded when it comes to religion, and this is all religions that they need to have miracles to prove that god exists and there religion is the correct one. The meaning behind the words of jesus is enough for me, the ten commandents is enough for me, the writings of Hillel is enough for me, the science of einstien is enough to me to believe in trying to be rightous and that there is a something larger then us. But then I am the type of guy that thinks the universe itself is a living entity or more.

and the miracle or magic that is most overlooked that this was not all an accident is called, Love.

 

simple minded to require proof of such outrageous claims before one accepts that someone is the SON of GOD? Interesting point of view though. Maybe it is something wrong with me...I wish I could turn off my mind and logic and just believe but I sadly cannot. Fine and good to say 'well, the words and ideas they passed on is more important than that pesky son of god stuff'

except that the 'son of god' stuff and the fantastic stories and miracles is the very thing its all about. It a religion... But I agree, whoever wrote the words, they were pretty revolutionary for the time...I might even be a Christian if it weren't for all that 'worship me' and 'accept me as your lord and savior' stuff.

 

First, God is the father of Jesus. Next Why do you believe in Julius Caesar, Mark Anthony, Augustus is it because someone wrote about them in books or on coins, painting of them, then Why not Jesus. As I child, I would go to church and ask Jesus or God to Protect and Save me for personal reason. I feel that he did because I am still here. I have four children and eight grandchildren to prove it. Look deep in your past and ask yourself how did you walk away from that past. Don't make excuses, blame other people but look at you. Remember God is here for you, just ask him. He gave us that choice to make.

 

well, welcome to the forums I am not making excuses and who have a blamed? I believe Julius Caesar, Augustus, etc...because they ruled an empire and there is a huge amount of contemporary evidence they existed and not just from his inner circle, or a few obscure historians...this guy appeared in front of all of Rome, probably millions witnessed him as a living human who ruled a huge empire and although Augustus was deified and considered a god after his death....I dont think he was...should I believe those people who said he was a god? Simply because someone wrote about it and people opened temples? This evidence is not from their inner circle, huge amounts of people thought he was a god.

With Jesus there is almost 0 contemporary evidence. Like I said before, even though there is just a tiny amount of contemporary references to him (save from his followers or people who wrote about him after his death) I DO think he existed...there is just nothing that I know of to recommend that he was some type of god save the bible that is a less than unbiased source, it is religious text with the goal of making the case that he was a god. Thats why not Jesus...

I believe Napoleon existed as well...for the same reason I think Augustus existed...a preponderance of contemporary evidence and witnesses from all quarters that he was there, like Augustus he was a ruler with official accounts, unofficial accounts, witnesses of every type from his time, friends, followers, enemies, and the mark he made on this world while alive all attest to his existence...The only thing we have to recommend Jesus as the son of god are his friends and followers, part of his inner circle.

I never asked God to protect and save me and here I am...older, wife and child, I am still alive and well...If something bad happens to me, I doubt it will have anything to do with whether I believe or not. Lets face it, one can try to make an argument about historical evidence, this has been done throughout time, but most in the end will say 'you just have to believe'...you believe because you cant know for sure because you didnt see it, you are proceeding on the belief that the bible is true...new or old testament...the older the more unbelievably fantastic the stories. I have always wondered how a person, if they really think about what Christianity is asking you to believe, really examine it, could believe such things. Does a man being born to a virgin, rising from the dead, walking on water, etc..etc... actually make sense to you? How can one not see how...unbelievable such things are. I just cant turn off my logical mind to see see all the problems that arise concerning christianity, god, the new and even more the old testament.

Certainly ancient sources often talk about such things, like Augustus being made a god and the proof they offer to his divinity...why dont people believe THESE stories? I dont...it was the nature of people to use divinity this way...look at the times...look at all the gods that have existed and have been worshiped...You ask why I dont believe in Jesus...why dont YOU believe in Aphrodite, Bacchus, Zeus, Thor, Mithra, Mohammed, buddha, etc...etc... the list goes on and on...Your belief is just one among many thousands...

 

BTW, a discussion like this can go on literally forever...and has. Because of the nature of the subject...personal beliefs...it is so subjective that there can be no wrong or right answer save that each individual finds the answers they think works best for them. As long as everyone remembers that what works for them, might not work for others, remembers their belief is just one of many...even if you dont understand, or are sure every other belief system is wrong...and they might think you are wrong...so its best just to believe what you believe...if it makes sense to you, thats all that matters.

 

Why do the atheists, agnostics, satanists, whatever try so hard to dissuade us from believing?? The debate typically goes something like this:
Believer: "Here is what I believe and this is what I believe I have gotten from it".
Non-Believer: "How can you be so stupid as to believe..this couldn't have happened, that couldn't have happened, etc".

Simple!!! It's called FAITH

 

I have never tried to dissuade anyone from believing...Like almost every christian on earth who tells us why they believe, I have simply made my points as to why I dont...I cannot tell you how many times I have been the target of an attempted conversion by a christians though so your complaint is kind of funny...I say believe what you want....I dont care as long as you dont try to force it one me. More power to you. You can pray to the great pumpkin for all I care...who am I to say you shouldnt. I would never want to foce someone not to believe in something even though so many seem to think I am somehow wrong for my own beliefs. Like I am somehow missing something...but I like your answer, makes things short and simple...dont try to prove or justify it because we all know you just have to have faith...

If you dont want to know the opinions of a person who doesnt believe...dont read a thread asking for opinions on religion from people who dont believe...Look at the title of the thread

 

From Drusus:
"It because what is writen is completely remove from reality and logic would tell anyone its crazy, completely outside the bounds of reason" Crazy?
"Does a man being born to a virgin, rising from the dead, walking on water, etc..etc... actually make sense to you? How can one not see how...unbelievable such things are. I just cant turn off my logical mind to see see all the problems that arise concerning christianity, god, the new and even more the old testament." Non-sensical?
"I wish I could turn off my mind and logic and just believe but I sadly cannot"
Illogical?

Sounds like a series of insults to Christianity to me.

 

They are personal opinions...not insults...the question was WHY people cant believe! The concept of a man rising from the dead, walking on water, etc..etc...sounds crazy illogical and non-sensical to me...If hearing how someone else views god and jesus is insulting to you, dont read. I was not saying anyone shouldnt believe it...I have never tried to convert people to my way of thinking, I just dont care what you believe...honestly.

Face it, if someone said they rose from the dead (besides jesus of course)...would they not be called crazy by most? These things defy reality as we know it, they arent logical, there is nothing in the natural world that does these things...

They are opinions...in the end, I couldnt care less what you worship. Nor do I care to change anyone mind.

also...I just love this...

"atheists, agnostics, satanists, whatever "

Lumping atheist with satanist... Transparent but classic lumping athiesm and agnostic with something complete removed and very negative like satanism...downright dishonest butI would expect nothing less

Like I said before though, its all personal opinion, we wont be solving the GOD iddue today on this forum, it is pointless to debate god...

 

I think by respecting others choices of faith, you are a better example of your own faith. Too bad most people cannot practice that. Too many people are too consumed with condemning others to hell, and not looking in the mirror and saving themselves from eternal damnation. No matter what your faith.

 

I tend to agree. I do not involve myself with the faith of others, and I prefer others not to concern themselves with my own. I believe anyone who is concerning themselves with my soul has other motives. I wont discuss religion outside of a venue like this.

I was fired from a job in East Texas. Soon after I was hired my boss asked me if I would be going to church and what church I went to...I said I didnt because I didnt believe in God...He then started trying to convert me, giving me literature about the evils of rock n roll and inviting me to picket abortion clinics, every day he had a new reason why I should believe. Eventually I just told him it wasnt going to happen...a little bit later I was informed that they didnt think the job and me were a good fit. Apparently they were all Christians and only wanted to work with Christians. Since then, I realized how being open about my beliefs could really harm me in a place like east Texas, I needed that job, if it wasnt for the fact I got a new one very soon after, it could have really hurt me bad. I now either say nothing or lie and say I believe in god....or just try to avoid the subject at all costs. I was nieve...I had no idea such a thing could happen to me simply becaus eI didnt believe.

The age old saying is completely true, dont talk politics and religion in mixed company.

 

A good example of the idiocy I refer to. Dontcha just wish you could "prove" this and sue the living daylights out of them for harassment and wrongful termination?

Frankly in the end, you were better off being fired, even if you didn't like it at the time. I got fired from job wrongfully once, and the State of Texas found in my favour. I could have sued the company for wrongful termination etc. on the advice of an attorney. But I could also tie up all my energies into fighting some stupid company or just go on, get another job with people I enjoyed working with and live without stress. And I chose the latter. By getting fired, one sometimes actually benefits from the experience by not being harassed etc. and or being someone you are not.

 

I think that there is far more effort expended by those who believe in whatever version of the almighty is currently popular to convince others to believe as they do than there is by those who do not believe in any version. We don't go on television or build churches or have holy days. We simply don't want your superstitions to be forced down our throats because you believe ALL life is sacred or that Jesus wanted this or God wants that. You faithy people are the ones attacking and claiming to be the victims the whole time. Nobody is buying it either.

 

You are right, at first I thought I should do something about it but then I thought, I am not an activist, I dont want to spend my time suing a bunch of closed minded jerk-offs who can only be around like minded people. Not to mention I had bills to pay and I was scrambling for another job. As my wife pointed out, I ended up getting a much better job in the city, much better pay, rewarding work, and I have traveled all around the world...the job was as a screen printer in a small town just outside of Dallas...I wouldn't have wanted to do that for long anyway. It all worked out for the better and I now know I am supposed to be ashamed and hide my beliefs just in case.

 

well, that is what we kind of have to do....and I can say this now that I believe..

but hey, if this is a true insult, feel free to provide me with the scientific evidence for man being born to a virgin, rising from the dead, and walking on water.


Face it dude, it is based on faith..


truly, if it werent for the prophecies.....IDK if I could believe.


stainless

 

Well ok this is not walking on water but it is possible to walk on cold custard and it has been proven, as for a virgin giving birth we have artificial insemination and there is also a illness were people have been pronounced dead only to be later found alive
Ps how about if the water is frozen? oh and people have clinicly died and been revived