Hamas vs Fatah

Discussion in 'Religion' started by Moen1305, Dec 18, 2006.

  1. Moen1305

    Moen1305 Not Republican!

    These two organizations are fighting each other for control of the snake pit known as Palestine. One solution would be to let Hamas take power and see if they can fight with Israel and take care of the population of the West Bank and Gaza while being bombed relentlessly by the Israelis. If they can do both, I'd be impressed. What do you think?
  2. Cloudsweeper99

    Cloudsweeper99 New Member

    I think I don't care as long as the US stays out of it.
  3. Drusus

    Drusus New Member

    I would have to agree with cloud...and I was thinking it might be good if we stopped paying Israel billions every year as well.
  4. Moen1305

    Moen1305 Not Republican!

    Well enough, but this situation is the spark that keeps the rest of the region a flame. Every Muslim that has ever used violence to accomplish any agenda uses the Palestinian issue to justify their actions. That has to keep us involved whether we like it or not. I'm no big fan of supporting Israel but I also don't see a way of avoiding doing so at this point in our political climate either.
  5. Guardian

    Guardian New Member

    What you aren't taking into consideration is the fact that a great nember of very high-rollers in this country are of the Jewish faith, and they are only sending part of their profits home to protect the 'home land' from the Arabs. Put into their shoes I'm not so sure a lot of the rest of us wouldn't do the same. Just a thought.
  6. Drusus

    Drusus New Member

    I am american...I would protect america. I see no problem with sending their own money, I see a problem with them sending billions of US tax dollars.
  7. Moen1305

    Moen1305 Not Republican!

    Most of the foreign aid that we send Israel is in the form of military equipment. That is what cheeses off their neighbors so much. It's not like we give them all this money and they decide to buy weapons with it. We give them weapons directly and call it foreign aid.
  8. Drusus

    Drusus New Member

    you should look at american spending to israel...we do indeed send them money, it is ear marked for specific things but we do send them money as well...lots and lots of it:


    96 Billion since 1949...4+ billion last year alone.

    The link above is broken down into

    Military aid, Economic aid, Food for peace, Bank, Jewish Refugee, Housing, Hospitals, and other.

    But you are correct, since 1949 we have sent them 62 billion in military aid alone.
  9. Bonedigger

    Bonedigger Another Wandering Celt

    The Christian Right and Left will never abandon Israel, I too support them. Not as fanatically as some but not a pacifist either.
  10. Drusus

    Drusus New Member

    To me its not a matter of whether I support one side or the other, or that I am a pacifist. Its more a matter of American supporting the world (israel being the number one on the list for the last 50 years until Iraq) and its not like we arent in massive debt...we are borrowing from china (peter) to pay paul (israel et all).
  11. Moen1305

    Moen1305 Not Republican!

    We pump so many arms into the world annually that it isn't even realistic to think that the world is ever going to be at peace anytime soon. Arms are a huge money maker for this country, or more accurately, for those that manufacture them and we are left to send our children abroad to take down the dictators and tyrants that we have armed under the guise of national defense. The more wars, the bigger the profit.

    I don't have any animosity against the U.N. for reasons of corruption or incompetence. I hate the organization because the only 5 permanent members are also the 5 largest arms dealers in the world. In case the irony of that little fact escapes anyone, read the U.N. charter some time. You realize the that we should change the name from the United Nations to Internation Rifle Association or simply learn to live with the very apt label of the world's biggest hypocrites. And guess which of the 5 leads the pack..."The U.S. is easily the world's largest arms merchant, with $86 billion in "transfers" since 1950".

    Our weapons industry is arming people to the teeth as our poilical leaders get us involved in foreign wars that only spur further sales for the lords of war. Kind of puts a whole new perspective on military service doesn't it.
  12. Bonedigger

    Bonedigger Another Wandering Celt

    I look at it like this. Israel didn't fly those planes into the WTC's and the Pentagon on 9/11. The Jews weren't happily hopping around in Dearborn, Mi passing out candy that day. Yes, there was information (at the time) which was misinterpreted and did cause the loss of life.

    Sadly, some say many (Military Members) were indoctrinated for 15 years after the Cold War ended on the evils of Radical Islam's growing threat which filled that (Cold War) void. Believe me the threat of Nuclear War is an effective deterrent to organized nations which pose a legitimate threat to another's existence, disorganized factions (Hamas/Fatah) are another matter all together. Strike, Run, Run and hide is what the IDFs are facing. An almost invisible enemy, but not totally. They are Muslims, and the Koran says...

    Anything, and I mean Anything which smacks of a peaceful Muslim I'm wary of. Perhaps I take it to extreme, but better safe than sorry. Here's a reality check, the Synagogues in the United States aren't under the FBI/CIA/DHS eye like the Mosques of the US are, which should tell everyone something...

    Israel is fighting these criminal head choppers on a daily basis in their own backyards. I support them 100% for if they aren't there then we'll be fighting this war here on another front sure as "God Made Little Green Apples."
  13. Krasnaya Vityaz

    Krasnaya Vityaz Разом нас багато

    USA and Israel should take sides, yes - give armaments to both sides to teeth and let kill each other. Then major problem of Middle East be taken care of.
  14. Bonedigger

    Bonedigger Another Wandering Celt

    Radical Islam = Beslan...
  15. Krasnaya Vityaz

    Krasnaya Vityaz Разом нас багато

    USA arm Israel as counterbalance of power in Middle East. It is not as easy for USA to insert into conflict as appears, since USA so dependent on Saudi Arabia for oil, and political donations for Republican and Democratic parties in USA.

    This is how it has been since rise of nationalism in Arab states beginning in 1930's. Powers from around world make their interests work in middle east. Germany of 1930's support Iraq nationalists against Britain while USSR occupy northern Persia.

    When Israel became indepedent in 1948, dynamics of political balance change significantly and Arab states have new enemy not France or Britain. With their 1956 invasion of Suez Canal Zone they make huge mistake, even USA make threats against all three for creating monster of Gamel Abdl Nasr. Then USSR support Nasr with advisors and military equipment in interests of creating bulwark against capitalists. But Nasr not easy to work with for USSR, and he might have been playing both sides against each other as he expel USSR people from Nile project and military advisors.

    If you think Saddam Hussein take over middle east he had less chance than Gamel Abdl Nasr, who have radio shows broadcast of Arab nationalists all over middle east and very popular, more than Hussein. Like Hussein, Nasr worst enemy was himself though.

    His legacy for Egypt is protege Hosni Mubarak still control Egypt now 25 yrs after assumption of power, and kept in power by USA.
  16. Krasnaya Vityaz

    Krasnaya Vityaz Разом нас багато

    At least we get responsible people, where Bin Laden??? I have respect of USA when you hang *******.
  17. Drusus

    Drusus New Member

    I am wary of typifying all muslims as evil as I am married to one and know many who would never do as you say. I also see the myriad of faults the west have made to broaded the gap between us.

    When you can clearly remember the west subjugating your people, when grandpa was strapped to cannons and blown to bit because he refused to do as he was told by a british colonial master, the love doesnt grow.

    and endearing image to say the least.

    Some would say the west gave away land and took sides that ended with the continued subjegation by the west....dont fool yourself in thinking that israel did not treat the Palestinians as subhuman or hadnt planned to do so since the turn of the century.

    "The Palestinians are beasts walking on two legs." -- Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, June 25,1982

    "We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population." --David Ben-Gurion, May 1948

    "Spirit the penniless population across the frontier by denying it employment... Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly." -- Theodore Herzl June 12, 1895

    "Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population." -- David Ben Gurion

    "We must do everything to ensure they [the Palestinian refugees] never do return." -- Menahim Begin

    "We shall reduce the Arab population to a community of woodcutters and waiters." -- Yitzhak Rabin

    "If I was an Arab leader I would never make [peace] with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country." -- Israel Koenig, "The Koenig Memorandum"

    Some may say the act of a colonial power giving away land that has a native population to others and showing favors to that other (and the jews were moving in there LONG before there was a new israel). You can say this is some ancient homeland but the fact is, once it was decided to be given over to the jews and that the jews would be given every advantage to subjugated the native population...the trouble started...

    In the end, IMO, they both need to live together and come to peace. Palestinians bomb because they are faced with an enemy with tanks and they have rocks and do not for one second believe that Israel is open minded and EVER wanted to give one inch to the native population of that land at the time of the British pull out...Its a convoluted mess and cannot be summed up as Arabs are brutal and evil and jews fight for freedom and the right…I think they both have rivers of blood on their hands as do the british and colonial powers for essentially sparking much of the problems and as well the xenophobic contingents of arabs and Muslims who now only want our deaths. I say guilty all around.
  18. Bonedigger

    Bonedigger Another Wandering Celt

    When I went to school in Nacogdoches at (SFASU-82) it was taught the Jewish people lived and occupied the land 3500 years before the Babylonian invasion and assimilation. Ancient history ???, no matter as far as I was concerned. A stronger tribe simply came in and forced out the weaker. This has happened again in the region - The Modern Nation of Israel. Yes, the USA is supporting Israel but the USSR is supporting Iran which in turn supports the Palestian Hamas militants. Old friends can never really get far away from each other.

    Closer to home, maybe we should look closely at the actions the early Texans who came from Tennessee, Vermont, Kentucky, etc. Much like the early Babylonians we forced out or assimilated the http://www.texasindians.com/karank.htm Karankawa Indians after gaining independence from Mexico.

    Unfortunately, man is wired this way (to conquer) and won't be seeing the electrician anytime soon...
  19. mrbrklyn

    mrbrklyn New Member

    And here is why we make that support. Its not a stratigic reason but an ETHICAL decision.

    From the Arab Press


    And I can't find the best one, the one which points to a bunch of people representing different nations for increasing hostility before WWII until the last one on the end points to a little Jew with the Caption, "Its his fault"

    This thread has blamed Jews for the Deficit, Islamofasicm, The Economy, etc. Nothing new here. Its said that rich Jews are controlling the media. This is straight anti-semitism and I'm going to have to reevaluate if I should let my family have access to this sight.

  20. mrbrklyn

    mrbrklyn New Member

    I would say the Arabs killed my entire family in Hebron in 1861 after they had lived there as a family, repessed for 3 centuries in our own land, until the Arabs killed them all, over 600 members, exept for 6 who moved to NY at that time. And you know what, we still have the deeds for over 200 homes and plots in Hebron.

    That land, the WHOLE thing, is Jewish. Its ALWAYS has been Jewish. Furthmore, the Arabs in those areas in power have always been aware of that and had repressed Jews in Israel since they invaded the land in the 7th Century. And whenever the Jewish population grew, Arabs killed the Jews. To deny the Jewish roots of that land is itself, fundementally Anti-Semtic. Furthermore, blaming 3 million Jews living in a small country for all the problems in a region of 200 Million people, a region which has had all of the minority groups under intense demographic pressure do to overt repression, is a fundemental lie.

    I would say that the Arabs have declared a genocidal war on Jews in the Middle East, and they are losing that war. I have NO PROBLEM with that. They have also declared war on eachother, on the West, and so on.

    Yeah - its Moshe's fault because he refuses to just roll over and die in the face of attempted genocide and forcefully being removed from our homeland. Don't bet on it.


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