If you are not too far gone....

Discussion in 'Politics' started by JoeNation, Feb 13, 2020.

  1. JoeNation
    Angelic

    JoeNation FOX Lies, GOP buys!

    The right needs to stop falsely claiming that the Nazis were socialists
    The Nazis hated socialists. It was the governments that rebuilt Europe that embraced social welfare programs.
    [​IMG]
    Nazi soldiers salute as Adolf Hitler leads his staff down the aisle during the opening of the National Socialist German Workers’ Party Convention in Nuremberg, Germany, on Sept. 11, 1933. (AP)
    [​IMG]
    By Ronald J. Granieri
    Ronald J. Granieri is director of the Center for the Study of America and the West at the Foreign Policy Research Institute and director of research at the University of Pennsylvania's Lauder Institute.
    Feb. 5, 2020 at 5:00 a.m. CST

    Did you know that “Nazi” is short for “National Socialist”? That means that Hitler and his henchmen were all socialists. Bernie Sanders calls himself a socialist, too. That means Bernie Sanders and his supporters are the same as Nazis … doesn’t it?

    Anyone who has been on political Twitter in the past decade has seen a version of this syllogism. Conservatives, seeking to escape the “fascist” and “Nazi” labels tossed at them by leftist critics since the 1960s, have turned the tables. Books such as Jonah Goldberg’s “Liberal Fascism” have noted that many leading fascists, such as Italian dictator Benito Mussolini, started out as socialists, just as many early 20th-century “progressives” embraced eugenic ideas ultimately linked to Nazi racist genocide. This connection has become a silver bullet for voices on the right like Dinesh D’Souza and Candace Owens: Not only is the reviled left, embodied in 2020 by figures like Sanders, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Elizabeth Warren, a dangerous descendant of the Nazis, but anyone who opposes it can’t possibly have ties to the Nazis’ odious ideas.

    There is only one problem: This argument is untrue. Although the Nazis did pursue a level of government intervention in the economy that would shock doctrinaire free marketeers, their “socialism” was at best a secondary element in their appeal. Indeed, most supporters of Nazism embraced the party precisely because they saw it as an enemy of and an alternative to the political left. A closer look at the connection between Nazism and socialism can help us better understand both ideologies in their historical contexts and their significance for contemporary politics.

    The Nazi regime had little to do with socialism, despite it being prominently included in the name of the National Socialist German Workers’ Party. The NSDAP, from Hitler on down, struggled with the political implications of having socialism in the party name. Some early Nazi leaders, such as Gregor and Otto Strasser, appealed to working-class resentments, hoping to wean German workers away from their attachment to existing socialist and communist parties. The NSDAP’s 1920 party program, the 25 points, included passages denouncing banks, department stores and “interest slavery,” which suggested a quasi-Marxist rejection of free markets. But these were also typical criticisms in the anti-Semitic playbook, which provided a clue that the party’s overriding ideological goal wasn’t a fundamental challenge to private property.

    Instead of controlling the means of production or redistributing wealth to build a utopian society, the Nazis focused on safeguarding a social and racial hierarchy. They promised solidarity for members of the Volksgemeinschaft (“racial community”) even as they denied rights to those outside the charmed circle.

    Additionally, while the Nazis tried to appeal to voters across the spectrum, the party’s founders and initial base were small-business men and artisans, not the industrial proletariat of Marxist lore. Their first notable electoral successes were in small towns and Protestant rural areas in present-day Thuringia and Saxony, among voters suspicious of cosmopolitan, secular cities who associated both “socialism” and “capitalism” with Jews and foreigners.

    This fear of social revolution and a sense that democracy, with its cacophony of voices and the need for compromises, would threaten their preferred social hierarchy gave Nazism its appeal with these voters — even if it meant sacrificing democracy. While Communists abetted the destruction of German democracy, seeing it as a way to eventually produce the revolution they wanted, the only German political party that consistently resisted Nazi arguments, the Social Democratic Party (SPD), offered another sign of the discontinuity between socialism and Nazism.

    Those outside Germany who embraced Nazi ideas were also generally anti-leftists. When Frenchmen murmured “Better Hitler than [Socialist Party Leader and Prime Minister Léon] Blum,” they were well aware what National Socialism represented, and it was most emphatically not “socialism.” When many of those same Frenchmen set up the puppet Vichy government in 1940, they did so under the banner of “Travail, famille, patrie,” (Work, family fatherland), happy to use state resources to support their idea of authentic Frenchmen — even as they criticized capitalism for providing benefits to people they didn’t view as French.

    Unlike much of the European left, many conservatives proved willing to work with Nazis — something they later regretted — an association that tainted postwar European conservatism. When it came time to rebuild European politics after the war, therefore, it fell to center-left parties such as Labour in Britain, the Socialists in France and the SPD in Germany, which abandoned rigid Marxist doctrines, alongside the new center-right movement of Christian Democracy, which rejected traditional nationalism, to take up the challenge. This was the hour of the welfare state, supported by social and Christian Democrats, which encouraged social solidarity within a democratic and capitalist framework.

    Despite this reality, linking socialism and Nazism to critique leftist ideas became a political weapon in the post-World War II period, perhaps unsurprisingly given that the Cold War followed directly on the heels of World War II. Scholars as diverse as Zbigniew Brzezinski and Hannah Arendt used the larger concept of “totalitarianism” to fuse the two. This formula made it easier for Americans to slip comfortably from considering the Soviet Union a wartime ally to recognizing it as an existential threat. Totalitarianism emphasized the structural similarities and violent practices of Nazi and Stalinist regimes.

    This concept, however, proved controversial as an explanation of the origins or subsequent appeal of either communism or Nazism/fascism. Although Hitler and Stalin had cooperated in an effort to conquer Eastern Europe in 1939 to 1941, this was more a marriage of convenience than a byproduct of ideological synergy. Indeed, the two sides eventually fought a genocidal war against each other.

    Austrian economist and future Nobel laureate Friedrich von Hayek added an extra layer to the conversation about socialism and Nazism with his 1943 bestseller, “The Road to Serfdom.” As a staunch free marketeer, Hayek was appalled by the rise of economic planning in democratic states, embodied by Franklin Roosevelt’s New Deal. Hayek warned that any government intervention in the market eroded freedom, eventually leading to some form of dictatorship.

    Cont'ed...
     
  2. JoeNation
    Angelic

    JoeNation FOX Lies, GOP buys!

    Hayek was enormously influential across the globe within the rising conservative movement during the second half of the 20th century. He advised future leaders such as Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan, and his book became foundational for the right. Hayek’s assertion that all government interventions in the economy led to totalitarianism continues to animate popular works such as D’Souza’s “The Big Lie,” reinforcing the idea that the welfare state is a gateway drug to genocide.

    But while these ideas may make sense to free market purists, the history shows that it was the parties that arose in reaction to the Nazi horrors that built such welfare states. Denouncing their programs as “socialism” or warning of a tie between the two is nothing less than historical and political sophistry that attempts to turn effect into cause and victim into victimizer.

    Historical analogies have a useful purpose to simplify and clarify, but they work best when used carefully. As manifest problems with global capitalism, as well as political gridlock, encourage a new hunger for fundamental political transformation, it is especially important that we understand the tragic decisions of the 1930s and their consequences in their full context, rather than simply transposing words from the past onto the debates of the present.


    National Socialism preserved private property, while also putting the entire resources of society at the service of an expansionist and racist national vision, which included the conquest and murderous subjugation of other peoples. It makes no sense to think that the sole, or even the primary, negative aspect of this regime was the fact that it used state power to allocate financial resources. It makes as little sense to suggest that using state power to allocate some financial resources today will automatically result in the same dire consequences.

    Historical “gotcha” threatens to reduce our political conversations to meaninglessness, and we should resist it. Debates over the proper role of the state in protecting citizens against the negative exigencies of the market are necessarily complex. Finding the proper balance of interests within a democratic political order depends on the measurement of results, not on the power of magic words to devalue competing ideas.
     
    Mopar Dude likes this.
  3. Mopar Dude

    Mopar Dude Active Member

    I waited to comment on this until I had the opportunity to truly read it in depth. And Joe, I extend a genuine appreciation for the well written and well thought out prose...... I do have an interest in the history of that era as I had family members that fought to defeat it. Some of these intricacies of the Nazi Socialist movement, I was not aware of and I appreciate it.

    As it pertains to the discussions here and among our political leaders, I regard the use of the these labels in our current atmosphere as nothing more than school-yard name calling. The words are used for shock value and have little or no true value associated with them. I refuse to acknowledge them regardless of the side that hurls them.

    The divide as I see it is this..... People by and large have an inherent need to be valuable to their families, their work and their communities. That in and of itself is the basis of the free market concept. We have a biological need to be self sufficient. When that need is encroached upon by overseers that believe they can make better decisions on our behalf and promise to gift us many of our needs, then we slowly become more and more apathetic and we end up with 30-40 year old men living in their parents house.

    Don't misunderstand, I am all in for helping a man back on his feet when he is down. And I do put my money where my mouth is in making that statement. I remember as a young man that it was somewhat shameful to have to accept government assistance. My mother was very poor. She was young and schooling herself in my formative years. I remember her burning tears when she applied at the schoolhouse for me to have reduced lunch fees. Now, fifty years later we have an entire portion of our society that live and expect these sorts of assistance. And I submit that this is born of apathy. Hence, I believe more jobs are a much greater ladder for success than more government assistance. It removes apathy from a persons life and offers a person pride in his accomplishment.

    Anyway, I am with you. Remove the schoolyard name calling and labels. Rather, lets debate the facts and leave the name calling to the children.
     
    JoeNation likes this.
  4. JoeNation
    Angelic

    JoeNation FOX Lies, GOP buys!

    Your comments are more thoughtful than mine. I simply posted a well-written article by Ronald J. Granieri. it fascinates me the amount of manipulation we are subject to even by those that claim to be standing up for us. I am fully aware of the sanitized message I am exposed to when I choose to back one side or the other. It only requires a slight amount of research to know that something you are being told might be true but it is what they aren't telling you that makes all the difference.

    When I hear people parrot stupid things like "Nazis were Socialists" without ever knowing the actual history, I am unable to hear anything else those people say because I know that they are coming from a place of willful ignorance simply because it fits their preconceived ideals not because they have actually done any research. Their next step is usually to deny the validity of the source-game over in their minds. And they never present an credible alternative source that can be compared with what they are disagreeing with. I guess that is the nature of these types of forums which is why I tend to not take them seriously even if the others wet themselves over some topic or another.

    I just like history which is what I like about coins. Not the value of my collection, but the history I learn while collecting them.

    As far as the article goes, I think the comparisons to the rise of the Nazi State in Germany to the rise of the Trump Authoritarian State are apt. Nothing is exact, history isn't that much of a mirror, but so many of the characteristics of the Trump movement and the human behaviors that will these movements into being are unavoidably similar. People don't believe that we could slip into an authoritarian dictatorship because we are a democracy and we've never had this experience before. Neither had Germany prior to Hitler but look where they ended up. A whopping 30% of the German people followed Hitler right off a cliff and as history witnessed, Europe burned.

    The Justice Department, the State Department, the Congress are all institutions that are buckling under Trump. Hitler did exactly the same thing.
     
  5. SmalltownMN
    Doh

    SmalltownMN Member

    Stop right here, Joe. This is just absurd. Anybody who compares the current state of affairs to Nazi Germany under Hitler is barking up the wrong tree. Get real. The comparisons are an insult to history and the people that actually lived through the horrors.
     
    JohnHamilton likes this.
  6. JoeNation
    Angelic

    JoeNation FOX Lies, GOP buys!

    You're right. Hitler was actually smart. Different times, merit different dictators. History often repeats itself. Why do you feel so immune to the tides of history? It isn't even possible in your imagination that another democracy falls into authoritarianism? You my friend, lack imagination if not an entire scope of history.

    I agree that it can be avoided and may never come to fruition. That is possible as well. But you can't deny that it has happened and can happen again. Barking up the wrong tree is still better than burying your head in the sand beneath that tree I'd say.
     
  7. SmalltownMN
    Doh

    SmalltownMN Member

    Hitler was a bat shit crazy madman responsible for the murder of millions.........and you call him smart while denigrating our own President. You truly do need help.
     
    JohnHamilton likes this.
  8. JohnHamilton
    Pensive

    JohnHamilton Active Member

    There are no parallels between Trump and Hitler. Hitler took over the German Government imprisoned, expelled or murdered the opposition and out lawed all political parties except the Nazi Party. He then launched wars of imperialism on eastern and western Europe with the express purpose of taking land and populations. He held those countries either by occupation or in the Vichy France, supported a puppet government. Hitler conducted industrial genocide in the execution of 6 million Jews, 3 million other minorities such as Gypsies and the “mercy killing” of the sick and mentally challenged.

    Where are the parallels to Trump’s policies? There are none.

    Joe does not like or support capitalism. He believes that it is based on mutual greed. He has not come out and said it directly, but I believe that he is a socialist who wants bring that system to America. That means that he is proposing to impose it on everyone else because there are no choices to opt out of it once it has taken hold in a country.

    What has Trump done? He has lowered taxes for everyone. I wish that he had done it permanently for individuals as he did for corporations, but that’s what the Republicans passed. He has reduced government regulations so that business have more freedom to conduct their affairs. This is the opposite of fascism and Nazism. These policies are supportive of the capitalist system.

    Our corporate tax rates were too high. They were the highest in the industrialized world. They were hurting the recovery from the 2008 recession and were preventing repatriation of American capital. Even Obama agreed with that in the 2012 campaign although he never did anything about it.

    Trump has tired to extricate us from the wars in the Middle East. He has not been successful because Iran, the Taliban, Al Quetta and Isis have continued their aggressive policies. Like the communists, the radial Muslins can’t have economic prosperity on their own because their dictatorial systems are flawed. They have to divert the attention of their population to “jehad” to stay in power.

    I agree with Mopar Dude that we need a safety net system from those who are out work, but we should not encourage sloth. I think that most people want to work and contribute society. Statistics have shown that since Trump came into office. Unemployment is down, food stamp applications are down, labor participation is up and more African-Americans and Hispanics are employed. What is wrong with that?

    Why do the Democrats want to run everything like the socialists do? I don’t get it. Taking on all of that responsibility is an incredible burden for government. It might sound sexy when you run for office on it, but the nuts of bolts of running a planned economy are not glamorous. It’s very hard work, and with the systems are complex, nearly impossible to do well.
     
  9. JoeNation
    Angelic

    JoeNation FOX Lies, GOP buys!

    Y'all think that what Hitler did to Germany happened over night. It didn't. It took years of slowly infiltrating one government institution after another until they all fell under the Third Reich's control. If only you could actually learn from history instead of being sucked into the same mistakes the German population made on their way to disaster.

    But the title of this OP sort of tells it all. Many of you are too far gone. You'll be the last to see what will eventually hit you smack in the face. Wish I was going to be there to see it happen to you. I'll be in the resistance movement at that point.
     
  10. JohnHamilton
    Pensive

    JohnHamilton Active Member

    And I would say the same of you.

    You can't see the consequences in electing a totally corrupt individual like Hillary Clinton, or a truly dangerous individual, like Bernie Sanders. These candidates are into politics for the power and the money. They don’t give a rat’s tail about the people. That is especially true for Hillary.
     
  11. JoeNation
    Angelic

    JoeNation FOX Lies, GOP buys!

    I am unsure how anyone that supports Trump can possibly call any other politician corrupt. The level of corruption in this administration is completely without precedent. If that weren't bad enough, we have the entire republican party aiding in the corruption. You no longer get to accuse anyone ever of corruption. I guess you can but you sound foolish and delusional doing so.
     
  12. JohnHamilton
    Pensive

    JohnHamilton Active Member

    I wish that there were a “LOL” on this site.

    The only thing that really bothers you is that Trump supports capitalism, and you despise it. All the rest is fiction. You will never get over the results of the 2016 election. I hope that 2020 will make you even angrier.
     
  13. JoeNation
    Angelic

    JoeNation FOX Lies, GOP buys!

    The only thing that bothers you is that you know I'm right and can't admit to it. By any standard, your president is the most corrupt human being to ever occupy the White House. He was a corrupt NY style mafioso before he ran for office and he became an even bigger criminal when he and his cronies in the GOP capitulated to his madness. You can laugh your bony old ass off all day but it doesn't change the fact that the guy you support was corrupt all along and remains so today. From illegal housing discrimination to screwing over veterans with his phony university to upping his game by bribing foreign leaders to intervene in the 2020 election, he respects no laws, no morality, and certainly not the Constitution. You never get to call anyone else corrupt again without a rousing round of laughter at your obvious hypocrisy. I understand that you have full faith and allegiance to this grifter but don't expect that the rest of us can't see the cult-like vacant stare in your words. You couldn't be more transparent.
     
  14. JohnHamilton
    Pensive

    JohnHamilton Active Member

    Like I said, we need a LOL button for at least part of the previous post.

    Was the Trump University a farce? Absolutely. Was the Trump Foundation screwed up? For sure.

    But so is the Clinton Foundation, which was nothing but conduit for Bill and Hillary to exchange political favors for cash, which made them very wealthy. Hillary also paid for the Steele dossier which the basis for whole Russian collusion hoax which wasted tens of millions of taxpayer dollars and ample portions on Congress’ time when more important issues went neglected.

    Yes, Trump has issues, but when you are faced with the alternative, forced socialism administrated by a group of incompetent people, like AOC, Pelosi, senile and mean spirited Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth “Pocahontas” Warren, you have to oppose to it with whatever you have available.
     
  15. Mopar Dude

    Mopar Dude Active Member

    We could argue the virtues of most any leader in recent memory and end up with a stench that Clorox can’t clean off. Its’s just the nature of the beast. Any man or woman that aspires to be president possess self serving tendencies that lead to corruption and filth in their own lives. They have to live with that. We don’t. What we do live with is the results of their policies. The policy decisions of our current leader is resulting in prosperity for many of us lowly working class folks. I for one hope that continues four more years. The filth that pollutes their own live is just that. Their own mess and each and every one of them will wallow in it either here or when they face their final judgment. There are no virtuous leaders in recent memory, currently or in our foreseeable future. And that applies both left and right.
     
    SmalltownMN and JohnHamilton like this.
  16. JoeNation
    Angelic

    JoeNation FOX Lies, GOP buys!

    The rest of the world doesn't buy it either. You're alone in your cult.

     
  17. JohnHamilton
    Pensive

    JohnHamilton Active Member

    That’s funny Joe. You can live in your little dilutional world with AOC dictating how you should live your life. She thinks she is running the Democrat Party. Even the some of the Sanders people are getting sick of her act.

    As for your Trump hating performance, that too is getting old and stale. Quite soon you going to have to tell us about something you like instead of only what you hate. If people of your ilk can’t come up with something positive, you are going to have four more years of Trump for sure.
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2020
  18. JoeNation
    Angelic

    JoeNation FOX Lies, GOP buys!

    Hate is a wasted emotion on the poorly educated. Does one hate dumb animals simply because they eat their own poop? No, of course not. You pity them.
     
  19. JohnHamilton
    Pensive

    JohnHamilton Active Member

    You hate Trump 24/7. Tone down your closer at the your posts, and you might look less like a hater. Delete the “short fingered” comment which is totally juvenile. It does you no good. You have not changed any minds, so why do keep up the hateful rhetoric? Because you hate Trump.
     
  20. toughcoins

    toughcoins Well-Known Member

    Just like I pity the die hard liberals . . . ?
     

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