National Day of Prayer; May 3, 2007

Discussion in 'Religion' started by Bonedigger, May 3, 2007.

  1. Drusus

    Drusus New Member

    thats trash rhetoric...A person uses tactics like that because yelling 'I WANT PRAYER IN SCHOOL!!' isnt working so they dishonestly evoke images of terror and connect them to what they are against...Much like people who evoke Hitler went talking about bush...its just a transparent tactic.

    To be honest, I don’t care if a person wants to pray in school…just don’t make everyone do it…don’t make it a requirement…I know others don’t feel that way…as long as it’s the same for everyone…

    For the life of me I don’t get it…here in Texas there is a church on every corner where people can seek out god, and voluntarily go to worship…honestly…every corner there is a church…they can go out on public property and gather with each other and pray or do what they would like to do…There are private schools that people can seek out that will integrate a religion of choice with education…why is it so important to have it at the courthouse and the public school as well where people of all beliefs MUST go…Why cant they have their god in one arena...and keep education and government as secular...
     
  2. Bonedigger

    Bonedigger Another Wandering Celt

    Many people don't think it's trash, it's just another's opinion and wish. I know you've got a stern objection to prayer in school along with Meon and if it's (prayer) every allowed back in I surely pray your son's and daughter's would have the option to get up and leave with the agnostic/atheist/other students who feel the need to.

    Prayer, it should be optional and available...
     
  3. Moen1305

    Moen1305 Not Republican!

    Remember, you can't say Madrasa with saying "Mad". Do you folks never learn? You believe that Christianity can't get as crazy as Islam can get but that is just your short-sightedness and I'm not willing to gamble on it. Rent the DVD "Jesus Camp" sometime and tell me that Christians don't work themselves up to the point of craziness. :eek:
     
  4. Andy

    Andy Well-Known Member


    We took out the good and left a hole for the bad.
    A book can be written about all the finer points but this is a website so the brief answer.
     
  5. Cloudsweeper99

    Cloudsweeper99 New Member

    There will always be wars. There will always be atrocities. But the type of mass exterminations that occur tens of millions of people at a time seems to require atheism at the top. I can't speak to animism or witchcraft; but this truth seems to hold true in the modern Judeo-Christian part of the world. All of the huge risks to life and liberty seems to be on the side of choosing atheistic national leadership. I, for one, recognize this and will vote accordingly. Others, who are comfortable with leaders with flexible moral grounding of their own choosing, can do what they wish.
     
  6. Moen1305

    Moen1305 Not Republican!

    As I already stated, neither side has a monopoly on flexible moral grounding. To buy into the idea that religions are somehow superior in this respect just because they say so, inspite of all the evidence to the contrary, is providing the money, making the trip, selecting the type, carrying home, and placing the blinders on your own head. You do have that right but why would you choose to exercise it? :cool: :eek:

    I am proof that you don't need God to live a moral life if I do say so myself. If I personally need more proof than that I can find plenty of examples of very ethically based moral people in my life that easily fit the standards of moral behavior of most religions. With this kind of evidence staring me in the face, how can I ever agree with your irrational assumption? Do you know any Atheists that live a life of depravity that have convinced you that all Atheists are this way? Or have you just reasoned this out in your head without looking around you for real-world proof of your belief?
     
  7. OldDan

    OldDan New Member

    O.K. Moen, you've convinced me! I was unaware that there were two of you in this catagory, so now it's been revealed to the world. Kind of like, I knew you were never wrong, and now you are also moral. Who could ask for more! Wait until I spread the word that we don't need to wait any longer for the 'second comming'.
     
  8. Moen1305

    Moen1305 Not Republican!

    Oh yeah, I forgot to say that I'm perfect too. :goofer:

    I guess this means I finally get my own religion with my own flock to worship me. Bow to me you sheep, BOW! I am also taking financial donations through paypal. Cough it up you sinners! :eek:hya:
     
  9. Cloudsweeper99

    Cloudsweeper99 New Member

    That's your blind spot. You assume that because you choose to live a moral life that atheists who attain positions of political power will arrive at the same place. Stalin, Mao and Hitler didn't. The next mass murderer in the world will probably come from their background too. REAL religious belief is a brake on that sort of outcome. Nothing in life is guaranteed, but that's the way to vote IMO.
     
  10. Moen1305

    Moen1305 Not Republican!

    There are those that would say George Bush is a mass murderer. You can argue about terms like terrorist, freedom fighter, enemy combatant, political prisoner, etc., all day but the truth is that the person in the world today that is responsible for more deaths than any other single leader on the planet, is a devout Christian. How are your brakes working now?
     
  11. OldDan

    OldDan New Member

    I can see it now, the first member of your congregation, and it's Danr, all the way from Arizona. A kindred spirit and fellow liberal.
     
  12. Moen1305

    Moen1305 Not Republican!

    As long has he pays, he will not go to hell. You might want to get in on this deal. I save Conservatives too but it costs a lot more since they have lead such sinful lives. :D
     
  13. Drusus

    Drusus New Member

    and of course your blind spot is somehow thinking that believing in a god will bring people to the right place (same place whatever) when that certainly isnt a case...you are looking for some assurance that a person will be more predisposed to being a good person if they believe in an invisible all knowing creator... you have zeroed in on god for that assurance and you fail to see that this means nothing at all. Save that you will be getting an adult who believes in invisible spaghetti monsters and invisible friends...and still able to be the biggest scum on earth or a complete idiot that will run our nation down the wrong path and do real damage. We can go in circles with this all year :)
     
  14. Cloudsweeper99

    Cloudsweeper99 New Member



    I have already stated that nothing is certain. But the probability increases for avoiding the next Stalin, Hitler or Mao with a belief in God, not atheism.
     
  15. Drusus

    Drusus New Member

    If that fallacy makes you feel better, who am I to argue with a subjective beleif :)
     
  16. OldDan

    OldDan New Member

    IF you were really who/what you say you are, then put me down as an Atheist. Drusus and I will get by somehow.:hug:
     
  17. Drusus

    Drusus New Member

    :high5:
     
  18. Moen1305

    Moen1305 Not Republican!

    Ahhh! So it's the probability game you're playing here...Please present your data so that we can all see how many people have been killed under a leader that was an Atheist (even if Atheism had little or nothing to do with it) and those killed by religiously inspired zealots. What you don't seem to understand is that you are literally surrounded by Atheists in this society and don't even realize it.

    You feel safer, probability-wise, under a person that has some sort of belief in some kind of God. Is it important to you which belief or which God? Or are there certain religious sects unfit to govern over you? Where do you draw the line?

    Communist and fascist governments throughout the 20th century have waged large worldwide wars. I'd say that they were more interested in spreading Communism and Fascism than Atheism. What about the Japanese of the same time period? They are a deeply religious people and fought along side of the Communists and fascists. Muslim countries fought along side of both groups as well. I think attributing the deaths from all these conflicts to Atheism is a bit of a stretch.
     
  19. Cloudsweeper99

    Cloudsweeper99 New Member

    99% of life is probabilities. There is no 100% assurance that someone professing to be religious isn't an atheist. I didn't say it was easy. I'm completely aware of the popularity of atheism. What could be better than voluntary morality determined by each individual without consequences? That's not a tough sell these days, and the impact on our culture is evident. But I feel more comfortable governed by someone with modern Judeo-Christian moral/religious beliefs than I do being governed by Stalin, Hitler, or Mao wannabes. Add those three together and use it as a benchmark against similar atrocities by Judeo-Christian religious leaders. It seems doubtful that a constitutional republic is a suitable form of government for hard core atheists. Communism virtually requires atheism to operate. The state replaces God, and human rights flow from the state. Fascism probably doesn't require atheism, but probably is more comfortable for atheists, and in the presence of atheism it seems to have a tendency to morph into something like Nazi Germany. I can't speak to religious beliefs in Japan, but they also do not seem to contain the moral restraints required to protect non-Japanese from extermination. India might also be a dangerous situation in the long run. How comfortable should people be when the person with their finger on the nuclear trigger believes in reincarnation? So you are correct that all religions are not equally suitable for governing the American Republic.
     
  20. Drusus

    Drusus New Member

    wow...its hard to know where to start responding to a post so full of fallacy, rhetoric, at best half truth, at worth worst dishonest and blatant hyperbole and constant comparisons to evil dictators in history. Yes...Atheism is perfect for a secular democracy...not so good for Russian style communism (of course I am sure you know Stalin was not communist...he was a dictator..I don’t think you would debate communism without knowing what it is).

    Your assertions are simple fabrication. Germany and Russia were both highly Christian states…if anything drove them to worshiping fascist leaders it was the fact that they were already able to leave logic behind and worship something…Certainly the oppression that Christian leader brought down upon their starving struggling people doomed to serfdom had nothing at all to do with them looking for ANY alternative :)

    1. there isnt 100% probability that a person professing religious belief isn’t just a scum...period...not atheist...just scum...there are so many I wont bother reading off the list...I have a feeling Jim Jones believed in a God...one out of thousands of examples of religious believers. I guess I could use a completely dishonest tactic and constantly equate the religious with the religious nuts and evil scum that professed belief...but I wont...because of course those are just a few examples and all of them should not be branded as scum for those that are...My main point would be you are using a transparent rhetorical device...very transparent...by trying to equate atheism with evil dictators and acting like if you vote for an atheist in modern US you are taking the chance of getting another Stalin...its the lowest form of rhetoric...equal to Bush is Hitler type stuff.

    2. See...you dont understand that these Judeo Christians you speak of also practice voluntary morality with no consequences...they all know they are doing it…they voluntarily use god as a moral compass, and if they dont use it, if they slip...there are no more consequences for them as there would be for anyone else, and they know this...and this happens all the time...Christians are so easily able to put aside that god you think is keeping them from kill everyone off and do as they please...certainly in judeo christian belief...they can do as they please as long as, in the end...they atone....am I right? They can kill, lie, steal and cheat...as long as they atone before they die...not much to keep them from doing whatever they want when you get a 'get out of hell' card free..a true believer will repent and in their imaginary world of heaven and hell, they will be forgiven...or...in more realistic terms...scum will do as they please...and if caught...ask for forgiveness and all will be okay...people will do as they will in the end...god isnt stopping them...just their own morals regardless of what they believe..

    3. the rest of your post is quite literally insane...Atheism is well suited for a secular constitutional republic...Logical, realist…what better? if anything the religious in this world have been the cause either directly or indirectly for almost ever bad thing one can think of…Stalin would not have been in power if it weren’t for the Czarist Christians, Hitler would never have come to power if not for the Christian Kaisers…etc…etc…

    It was mostly likely their indoctrination into religion that made them so easily led…I see it every day today…the dead eyed follower of a religious figure like Joel Osteen and the like… person easily duped into believing an invisible all powerful being seems far more gullible and prone to be talked into almost anything...I mean they were convinced that there was a big all powerful, all knowing, invisible super being...that a virgin woman became pregnant by god and gave birth to the son of god...someone convinced them that a human being rose from the dead and made fish and loafs appear, turned water into wine, someone parted the red sea!! They don’t find these things insane!!! If they can be convinced these things happened...they are likely to follow anything...they are likely high suggestive...because these stories are simply unreal…

    While an atheist doesn’t not believe in such things...they are anchored in reality and logic...they are not so suggestable...they would work to get very real things done...


    In the end...I guess you dont even see these huge errors in logic that you make and how your reasoning is so flawed but I assume you believe in god...so there I go expecting a person who believes in the holy zombies, virgin births, and the great invisible super being to have logic :) I kid…I have no problem with believers…I have a lot of them as friends…I would not hesitate to vote for one I thought might do good for this nation…
     

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