It is my belief that once Coalition Forces leave Afghanistan the Taliban would return to power there. Given that likelihood, and this recent report, I find myself considering the consequences could be acceptable to me, even though it may mean a return to late 1990s insanity. The report: http://www.rusi.org/downloads/assets/Taliban_Perspectives_on_Reconciliation.pdf The report indicates the Taliban would be accepting of things I had never considered them possible of before, such as an American military presence (at least until 2024). That is amazing to me. They would allow our forces there to help protect the country! This is not the Taliban I pictured. That isn't to say I like them, they are extremists who force their beliefs on others with a remorseless brutality, but given the circumstances they are more rational than I've given them credit for. And I'm always going to question motive. So, what do they want in return? International acceptance for one. They want legitimacy. That is something I could accept, since the legal aspects come into play, the International Community would then be able to use diplomacy to extract more palatable concessions from them over the decades, and Afghanistan's people would benefit immediately. They'd also renounce all affiliations with al Qaeda, and that is a very alluring concession in itself. One concession we would have to make is throwing Karzai, and his buddies, under the bus. I've never liked the man, and don't trust him in any sense, so personally I don't have an issue with that. In an odd way, I do trust the Taliban more than Karzai, because they speak from the heart, nasty as it is, it's better than the two-faced Karzai. The Taliban are also apparently open to social reforms in the country, an unheard of consideration given their past. Again, I take this with grains of salt pouring down my throat, but do indeed take them for their word far more easier than someone so used to lying he can't stand up anymore (Karzai). So, does anyone else here agree with me that this may very well be the best solution we can achieve? ...not counting Stu...it's understood that by us leaving troops there he likely couldn't.
I could not care less who is in charge when we leave. It isn't going to matter. They won't rule the whole country anyway. And as for the Taliban... I don't give a damn about them. We did not go there to fight them. They were just the quasi-government we had to take down to get to the terrorists we needed to kill. Oh sure, later the Taliban became the actual enemy but that is only because we were running out of terrorists in Afghanistan to kill and we weally, weally wanted to stay. And Karzai is a fraud. A true puppet. He has about as much legitimacy as President as a stone has blood. And about much integrity too. If it is any consolation, most of his people seemed to want him dead. At least in 2008. I have a photo with a bunch of us and him. Not exactly something I keep in a frame.
LOL...I'd tack the pic up on a dart board. Then again, you'd only hit him some of the time. "Sorry 'bout that bud! I must be gettin' too drunk!" No, you didn't. We all know your bud did something, a practical joke maybe...like putting tacks next to your bunk and screamin' 'Wake up, soldier!' Yeah, he knows why... But IMO, this is an amazing opportunity to ...(chokes a little) ...sorry...this is an opportunity to....build...a..........nation....(sighs) I know how that sounds, but this is still an amazing opportunity to end hostilities between us. Think about it, the Taliban are making unbelievable concessions here. In an ironic twist, it's the Taliban who wants us to stay, while Karzai wants us out! Unreal. Then they admit they made a mistake siding with al Qaeda, and are going to remove them whether we reach an agreement or not. They want social reforms, including education and health issues (though not for girls who reach puberty, over time that has a chance of changing). To me, this is better than I could have imagined possible. One thing though, I doubt Obama would want this to go mainstream right now. The idea that America could possibly negotiate with a group such as them would be a severe hit to his chances in November. You hear that, righties? Now's your chance to throw Obama and the future of Afghanistan under the bus for political gain. Do not disappoint me!
Here is an article that pretty much tells the tale in Afghanistan. Short and sweet. http://world.time.com/2012/10/03/is-the-u-s-admitting-defeat-in-afghanistan/?iid=gs-main-lede We've known for a long time that we weren't going to 'win' anything in Afghanistan. The surge was a desperate move that didn't work. And leaving today is the same as leaving in 2014 and the same as it would have been leaving in 2009. Or earlier. "Washington has known for years that it had no hope of destroying the Taliban, and that it would have to settle for a compromise political solution with an indigenous insurgency that remains sufficiently popular to have survived the longest U.S. military campaign in history. Still, as late as 2009, the U.S. had hoped to set the terms of that compromise, and force the Taliban to find a place for themselves in the constitutional order created by the NATO invasion and accept a Karzai government it has long dismissed as “puppets.” This was the logic behind President Obama’s “surge,” which sent an additional 30,000 U.S. troops into the Taliban’s heartland, with the express purpose of bloodying the insurgents to the point that their leaders would sue for peace on Washington’s terms. But the surge ended last month with the Taliban less inclined than ever to accept U.S. terms as the 2014 departure date for U.S. forces looms."
Interesting reading. I remember Russia's attempt to placate Afghanistan. The Russians left with their tails tucked firmly between their legs. I'd hazard the guess that our military commanders thought the Russians ran because we were involved semi-covertly and made them run. They underestimated the difficulties the terrain had for armored vehicles, they underestimated Afghanistan's people. Huge mistake, IMHO. That brings me to our initial invasion. My thinking was more about quickly going in, in fast strike carriers (light armored vehicles and helicopters) directly targeting the known al Qaeda bases, with the goal of eliminating most of their capabilities within a few days. Target priority one would be Bin Laden of course. But our government thought it could wage War better than it's military. Instead of listening to concerns they brought up, they insisted on a strategy of doing more with less troops. Huge mistake. I'm not against the less troops idea, the fast strike carriers I mentioned fall into that category, but they were spread too thin, ordered to do things that were unnecessary to the primary mission, that of reducing al Qaeda's capabilities to attack and the capture or killing of Bin Laden. Rumsfeld in particular annoyed me. His initial tactics were similar to mine, to what I thought was necessary, but it became obvious to me pretty quickly that he had ideas that were causing disorder. As the weeks went by, then months, it became clear Bin Laden had been allowed to escape. That pissed me off. It was the main reason we invaded, the only reason I supported the decision. Now we were stuck there. The Government decision to create an American-lovin' society there was idiotic from the get-go. That brings us to today. For years, more and more of the American public has called for us to leave Afghanistan. It isn't as easy as it sounds, it takes months of pre planning to put the necessary resources in place. I'd guess a minimum of six months in all, from the time the decision is made to the time when the last soldier could leave. That's in peacetime, with no one trying to blow the crap out of you. In War time, I'd double my estimate, but that's if we didn't want to just abandon tanks and such. Where the hell am I going with this? I'm just trying to give you an idea of what my thought processes are on this, and to explain a few of the reasons why we are still there, as I see it anyway. Both of us know that some of our soldiers will be there, most likely for decades. This "new" proposal by four of the near-top-tier Taliban provides for a more peaceful resolution to our continued presence. Is it legit? I think so. Will our troops still die there? Yep, but with the Taliban wanting them there and al Qaeda virtually nonexistent under such a truce, less of them will die than they otherwise would under the "full withdrawal" bs scenario we were previously considering. So, I guess I'm asking what you think about that. Could you support the continued presence of a small (10,000?) contingent of our troops there if the Taliban accepts their presence?
No, I would not support that. I do not believe our military should be used as hired hands for another country. Also, while I have no problems with the Taliban taking over the country if they sever ties with terrorists, they should not become some kind of fantasy ally of ours. The last thing we need to be doing is forging that kind of relationship with a fascist theocracy attempting to consolidate their rule over an entire country. I think what you are proposing is a job better suited to a UN Peacekeeping Force...which I would also say does not need to be led by the US.
Fair enough. For the record: I wouldn't want you to be the one making the decisions any more than you'd likely want me to, . But yeah, I totally agree that the UN PF would likely be the actual force. That said, the U.S. would likely lead it. Thanks. I just wanted to go down the stujoe rabbit hole and see what's there. It's...dusty down there.
The Taliban really really hate girls receiving an education, after puberty, but this 14 year old was also targeted for her blog posts. They believe she was promoting secularism. How dare she. lallallalla http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-19893309 Quite a few people in Pakistan are outraged: Good to hear. The issue they have with her: This is a problem I have with religious fanatics. The belief is interpreted over and over again until no one is seen to be a part of it...except for a select chosen few. At the point it is now in some countries, War is constant. I'd hate for our country to go further down that route, as it's getting pretty ridiculous here. If you are female, you are less than a man, in some places in the World. My opinion runs opposite of that, as I believe women are the base of the family, the most important. She is still a target, and always will be. She's a courageous young girl, and the people trying to kill her are worthy of death, IMO. Some history on the group: Governments response, of course: This may help convince Pakistanis to fight these types of groups, to oust them, to kill them: Only at the worst of times can we find the strength to commit to a drastic change. These events lately are a good indication that people are tired of the religious fanatics ruling their lives. My hope is that someday they will not let religion tell them what is good and bad. My hope is that someday they will just know what is good and what is bad. But until then, I see all of these recent events as a start in the right direction, a start at common sense.
I really should have created a separate thread for this story...but, oh well: Malala Yousafzai, schoolgirl shot by Taliban, now in UK Fourteen-year-old Malala Yousafzai, the Pakistani girl shot in the head by Taliban gunmen in Swat, has arrived in the UK for medical treatment. (15 October 2012) http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-19954043 By "big" men, with "big" guns. I guess this is the main reason I put this story here, since I'm advocating for a peace deal with them, and this was one of the things I hate about them. I mention this to show how other countries are participating...something I also endorse. Patriotism has no place when specialized treatment is necessary. I'm glad the family made the right decision. Top-notch, I'm sure. It is a coup for the new center too...it gives them free publicity. Let's hope Taliban sympathizers don't attack the center for their treatment, unlikely, but not impossible, IMO, given their hatred for this young girl and their statements about killing her if she survives. Good to hear. I'm sure they are taking extra precautions, given the threats. Urdu, the language: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urdu I remember that, and the locals. I had often wondered what they must have felt, being bullied like that, being savgaged or even killed for minor transgressions against the LOCAL Taliban faith. A lesson in religious extremism taking hold of a populous. America should really heed the warnings these stories invoke, and not allow religion to dominate the policies we live under. Details of the attack. I think Stujoe will agree with me on this, at least in part, that it's not "terrorism", it's religious extremism. I wish they'd point that out more, but "terrorism" is the buzz-word of the days we live in, I guess. That's what I want to see...don't back down to a bunch of bullies. That's a tough seat to be in, to be a President during a radical social-change movement. I do not envy the guy, and hope this incident gives Pakistan's people the courage to fight that battle in the decades ahead.
I found another horrible story, and decided to post it here, to remind people of daily life in the region. The following is about a 20 year old woman who's mother-in-law repeatedly tried to get her to prostitute herself, and had someone behead her for refusing. I usually prefer the BBC's site for this type of thing, but I don't see the story on there yet, and I don't want to wait. Afghan girl killed for not prostituting HERAT: Afghan police have arrested four people who allegedly tried to force a woman into prostitution in western Afghanistan and beheaded her when she refused, officials said Wednesday. (October 17, 2012) http://www.thenews.com.pk/article-71893-Afghan-girl-killed-for-not-prostituting Women in societies like this have so little rights. In a few stories I've read, if a woman is raped, even in her own home, she is guilty of prostitution. If she walks in public unescorted by a male, she is guilty. It's unreal. I don't see too much info on the reason for the father-in-law and husband's arrests, but in their society the males rule, and it's likely they also insisted she prostitute herself as her mother-in-law demanded. If you ever think YOUR mother-in-law is awful... Apparently he believes it would have been acceptable to behead her for refusing to prostitute herself if she were indeed a prostitute...and the punishment for prostitution is likely the same...unreal. I'd need to know more about the husband's role in this, but he had gone to work and was not directly involved in the beheading. Wayyyyyy more. It's frowned upon for women to complain, and the punishments for doing so are harsh. And yet, prostitution is a major crime...with brutal punishments. Family life in this region sucks...especially if you are a woman. Some countries in Northern Africa are nearly as bad.
Just to be clear: I post these things, not to illicit responses (though they are always welcome), but to remind people to be grateful for the small things in life, to not sweat the small stuff. I'm trying to remind people to have a healthy perspective on things, and not be consumed with minutia, like whether or not Obama called the attack on our consulate in Libya 'an act of terror' or not the day after the incident. In the grand scheme of things, a conversation on an obscure internet forum isn't important anyway.
When I read these things, one of the things I think is "Yeah, this is the culture that we think we can bring a modern Democracy to. We are truly idiots. And not just regular run of the mill idiots either. But rather the drooling, babbling kind of idiot."
That's the thing about massive social change, it has a will of it's own, it finds it's own path. The idea is to show how you mean them no harm. By doing that you get better results, you earn a friend and not deserve an enemy. That said, if they demand to be our enemies, leave them to themselves.
It will take generations for them to go from the Dark Ages to the 21st Century. And I believe nothing we will do will change that.
I'm so sick of Afghan culture. Afghan girl's beheading: Two arrested in Kunduz province Afghan police have arrested two men accused of beheading a teenage girl with a knife in northern Kunduz province, officials say. (11-28-12) http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-20532037 The police are another issue: