Y'all do know that the G.A.O. determined that Trump Broke the law by withholding Aid to Ukraine?

Discussion in 'Politics' started by JoeNation, Jan 17, 2020.

  1. JoeNation

    JoeNation FOX Lies, GOP buys!

    The impeachment of Donald Trump is in many ways about a clash of two different visions of the power the president holds. On one hand, we have a system of laws, beginning with the Constitution, that sets out a division of powers and responsibilities between the various branches of government.

    On the other we have Trump, who believes “I have the right to do whatever I want as president” and for any reason — even if it means using his office to advance his personal financial and political goals.

    The latest Trump impeachment trial updates

    While the Ukraine scandal has revealed a variety of abuses of power, there is one particular way in which Trump and his administration might have broken the law, when on his orders the administration withheld military aid to Ukraine that had been appropriated by Congress in what we now know is an attempt to coerce Ukraine into announcing an “investigation” that would smear Joe Biden.

    The Government Accountability Office, the federal government’s independent auditor, released a judgment saying Trump did in fact break that law when through the White House’s Office of Management and Budget (OMB) he withheld the aid from Ukraine in the summer of 2019:

    Faithful execution of the law does not permit the President to substitute his own policy priorities for those that Congress has enacted into law. OMB withheld funds for a policy reason, which is not permitted under the Impoundment Control Act (ICA). The withholding was not a programmatic delay. Therefore, we conclude that OMB violated the ICA.
    To clarify some of the bureaucratese, a “programmatic delay” refers to a finite set of practical reasons the executive branch can use to justify temporarily withholding aid that Congress has appropriated. When that happens, the executive branch is required by the law to write an explanation to Congress; the Trump administration didn’t do that either.

    What the executive branch can’t do is just decide it doesn’t want to give the aid because it doesn’t think the country being aided deserves it. And that’s what the White House itself claims it was doing, when it says Trump withheld the aid because he was supposedly so concerned about corruption in Ukraine.

    Last edited: Jan 17, 2020
  2. Mopar Dude

    Mopar Dude Active Member

    Anyone ever broke the law when they got on the highway? I bet everyone in haste has exceeded the speed limit. Perhaps drove to the corner grocery store without seat belts? Sure, this is a ridiculous analogy... But breaking the law is breaking the law, isn't it? Should our prisons be filled with speeders and seat belt offenders? I would surmise not. However here we are in the throes of wreaking havoc on a nation and it's economy to appease those that find anything this man has done to be high crimes of treason. It all amounts to driving your car off the cliff in my book.
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2020
  3. JoeNation

    JoeNation FOX Lies, GOP buys!

    Technically, this act in and of itself does not constitute a high crime and misdemeanor. No president could be impeached for this type of indiscretion. It does however add further evidence to the claim that Trump withheld military aid to a foreign ally as a way to get that ally to investigate his political rival. THAT IS an impeachable offense. It's spelled out the the Constitution fairly clearly and is a breach of the oath of office that all presidents swear to uphold.

    So if I understand what you are saying, you think that the oath of office is meaningless, the Constitution is merely a bunch of guidelines, and any president that is caught committing high crimes and misdemeanors should just be slapped on the hand with no real consequences for any lawlessness whatsoever?

    So, what crime would you consider enough to impeach a president for? I'm just curious where the line is for you. What has to happen before you'd consider impeaching a president? If you could please draw a specific line a president would have to cross in your opinion, I'd love to put some questions to you as to how you came to that specific line.
  4. Mopar Dude

    Mopar Dude Active Member

    Well.... I have a new phone that will likely take me five years to learn so I do not know quite yet how to reply to a portion of your message. However I am addressing your question to me in your last paragraph.

    For the record, I was as opposed to the Clinton impeachment as I am to this farce. Where do I draw the line? I draw the line at the affect it has on millions of hard working Americans. This purported crime does not do that. However the year long circus that has followed certainly has in the form of a neutered government..... This is not an impeachment, Joe. It is political posturing. And if somehow this is confirmed by the senate, the fallout will be felt by hard working Americans. Not the left or the right. It will fall like a hammer on Mister and Misses Joe Average. The folks that only have a chance to be heard in November. Meanwhile our useless lawmakers will go on leading their pampered lives while we pay the price. The line? Well, that will ultimately be drawn in November. And as I recall the right didn’t fare so well when they forced this down our throats over Mr. Clinton. Beware, the bell tolls soon.
    SmalltownMN likes this.
  5. JoeNation

    JoeNation FOX Lies, GOP buys!

    I have so many questions after having read this. So many questions. How does impeaching and removing a corrupt government official neuter the government other than giving Americans a government they can trust? Many, many, corrupt government officials have been removed or forced from office without causing Mr & Mrs Joe Average to get hammered. Look at Nixon. Did the country come to a stop? Not even a little. Look at numerous congressmen that have been forced out due to corrupt behaviors. Somehow, we chug along in spite of rooting our corrupt politicians, in fact, I'd say we are better off once they are gone.

    The real danger for Mr & Mrs Joe Average is letting corruption go unchecked because once it becomes normalized, no one is safe, law means nothing, and we all live in a third-rate banana republic. No one man is so important that the country will come tumbling down without him. You know that. What you have present here is a just a straw man argument that doesn't answer the simple question posed.

    I'll present the question again and please take note of the word "specific". I'd be happy to answer any question you pose directly and specifically but please show me the consideration of answering the question I asked not the one you'd prefer to answer. Thanks

    So, what crime would you consider enough to impeach a president for? I'm just curious where the line is for you. What has to happen before you'd consider impeaching a president? If you could please draw a specific line a president would have to cross in your opinion.......
  6. Mopar Dude

    Mopar Dude Active Member

    Guilty as charged.... I'll have to respond later. Wife's sister just went to the hospital so my partisan thinking cap is turned off. Getting old ain't for sissies. I will get back to you.
    JoeNation likes this.
  7. JoeNation

    JoeNation FOX Lies, GOP buys!

    Family first. :)
    Mopar Dude likes this.
  8. Mopar Dude

    Mopar Dude Active Member

    See if I can do this somehow without appearing a fool. I am not a law or a constitutional scholar. My education ended far too early. So this is quite admittedly a woefully uneducated viewpoint only... A man in the street opinion if you will.

    I firmly believe that those that are in elevated positions are obligated to hold themselves to a higher standard. Particularly when compliance with the law is involved. No, I do not believe breaking the law is acceptable by a president, governor or any leader or figurehead that is in an elevated position.

    It is impossible for me to separate the question from the current situation. I said before that breaking the law is breaking the law however the definition of "high crimes" eludes me. Mr. Clinton having a tryst in the oval office and lying about it is breaking the law, however not worthy of an impeachment in my view. Making a phone call to the leader of a somewhat corrupt national leader and threatening to withhold US aid for information? Is that a high crime? If the express intent is to sully a political opponent then yes, I would view that as a crime. Same as Nixon. The fact that this ordeal is entirely divided among party lines tells me the nature of the offense is questionable at best. So, we are at trial now to determine who is or is not giving us the facts. If the trial determines that Mr. Trumps goal was to sully a political opponent, I will reserve the right to change my opinion. I do not know that is the case here. I believe Mr. Trump was dealing with a corrupt nation in the only manner corrupt people understand. But that's just what my gut tells me.

    Now, to directly answer your question. In my view an impeachment is an action that should be taken upon a president that has done an offense egregious enough to put our nation in jeopardy somehow. Whether it be to our national security or maybe for a personal financial or political gain. My mind keeps gravitating toward a treasonous act. Selling arms to the enemy sort of situation.

    Look, we have all known "bad people". Typically we arrive at that judgment not because of what these bad people do. We arrive at our conclusion typically because of the behavior that person exhibits. I believe our president suffers from exactly this problem. People want to paint him as a criminal because he is not a touchy-feely guy. He is boisterous, braggadocios and abrasive. I do not admire that about the man. But that does not make him a criminal. And at the risk of repeating myself. The substance of a man is in his results. Mr. Trump has achieved results that are palpable to me and many more like me. And that matters.

    Edit..... Analogies are very useful to me and I believe this analogy applies..... Mr. Robert Kraft owns the New England Patriots. He is a widowed man. Earlier this year there was quite a sensationalized report of him visiting a massage parlor. He is a widowed man. So what? To me this report had the overt appearance of the NFL trying somehow to defeat a man that was unbeatable on the field of play.... To me and many others in my circle, this impeachment has much the same overtone to it. Thus making the entire affair political rather than impeachable.
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2020
  9. JoeNation

    JoeNation FOX Lies, GOP buys!

    Thank you for your honesty. You are one of the few here that genuinely presents your side of the argument with civility and reason. Even as I find myself disagreeing with some of your stated opinions, I would never hesitate to respect you for having an opinion even if it differs from mine.

    Given that Trump has not bothered to offer any defense of his actions either through testifying himself or even allowing his people to testify, my suspicions are that he is guilty as hell. Bill Clinton, who did nothing more than have an extra-marital affair, which many presidents did while in office, testified and tried to mince words while knowing that he did indeed have an affair. Rightfully, he was impeached for the cover up and the lies he told. Did he deserve to be removed from office? Not for lying about an affair for sure. Technically, he lied under oath as I am sure Trump would do also. Remember, there is a tape of this "perfect" phone call and Trump could play it anytime to prove his innocents. He refuses and that says guilty as hell to me.

    I think that this is less political and more inevitable given Trump's past behaviors. He has been caught many, many times doing dishonest despicable things and always bought his way out of jail time. Just another unfortunate reality of our justice system that we allow wealthy people to buy their way out of exactly what you or I would spend years in prison if we were caught doing. The man is the poster-child of the wealth grifter. The more he gets away with, the more he tries to get away with. He has taken this philosophy straight into the White House.

    Trump is at the top of his game right now. He will ride this cash-cow until he is taken down once and for all. He will have taken this country for everything he can get and then save himself from any consequences owed him. He cares only about Donald Trump. He isn't your savior.

    If I didn't have kids, now adults, I'd say let this idiot destroy this country and let the people that never bothered to vote and those that support men like this get what they deserve. I do have kids that will survive long after I am gone and I hate to see what a man like this will do to their futures.
    Mopar Dude likes this.
  10. Mopar Dude

    Mopar Dude Active Member

    I appreciate that. When I left the Army I pursued a career as a musician. Fun, but didn't pay the bills. So in 1985 I went to work for a man that had just started a construction materials business. My goal was to drive his trucks, do warehouse duties and the like so I could pay bills while I chased my weekend rock star dream.... The man is a hot blooded Italian that spent more time hollering than he did talking. Absolutely nobody liked the man, nor did they trust him. Though I knew he was honest as the day is long. He was a greedy, scary and intimidating man to be certain. When he sold his business in 2005 somehow he saw enough in me to make me a personal loan of more than a million dollars to start my place. A loan made with some scribble on a nightclub napkin. No joke..... My point is this. If you met him, you would likely be somewhat repulsed and go away bewildered that somebody like that was able to make something of himself. But in the twenty years I knew him, he became wealthy and by golly he got the job done. His exterior was a poor portrait of what his substance was. Perhaps I see much the same in Mr. Trump.
    SmalltownMN likes this.
  11. JoeNation

    JoeNation FOX Lies, GOP buys!

    That's what I've been saying Charlie.

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