911 debate

Discussion in 'Chatter' started by tomcorona, Sep 14, 2009.

  1. arizonaJack

    arizonaJack Well-Known Member

    You have made some serious points here, and I thank you for that. Opens the eyes if I might add.

    Many of your thoughts are said to be radical, yet to have an honest debate,they must be investigated fully. From both sides.

    I firmly believe you to be an " inside job " conspirorist ( spelling ), yet you have laid out some homework that an honest person must look at. The load you laid out is practised and habitual, so repudiations will be time consuming.

    If there is something there, we must all reconsider our beliefs. If you can be proven wrong, you will be.

    I thank you for joining here, and better yet, for your type of debate. It is refreshing and something we can do with out name caling and opinion pieces, this can be done with facts and footnoted documents.

    I will get on it, you have already proved me wrong once this evening. That I admit, was a shocker.
  2. tomcorona

    tomcorona Anti republican truther

    I appreciate the remarks Sir, and take your best shot at disproving me, cause if I am wrong, then the world is not in as much of a mess as I would have thought. Being wrong would be a good thing in this case and I would hope become less cynical if I were wrong which would also be a good thing. I'd like to think I'm logical and still open minded. You might prove me wrong (but I doubt it)..:) Good day Sir.
    Edit: Yes I am a 911 conspiracist and I do wear my tin foil hat proudly. Far as the load Jack, just take any one topic and we can go back and forth.

    Edit again. http://davidraygriffin.com/

    There are obviously lots of websites out there that generate countless snipets of info, but the 4 above are 4 of about 10 that I think are pretty tough to refute.
  3. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Clown Hater


    Are you saying that in order to weaken steel, it must be raised to it's melting point and that the weakening of steel at lower temperatures is a myth that is debatable? It is called annealing Tom. Pick up a metallurgy book or thermodynamics book an see what happens to steel after it reaches it's critical annealing temperature. I case you don't have access to metallurgy books, I will tell you. The microstructure changes and the physical properties of the metal change drastically. It becomes much more malleable and loses most of its strength. The engineers that design high rise structures base the loads on the metal that will be used. If the metal loses most of its strength and can no longer support the load applied to it, it will fail, fracture, break, collapse. Got it.

    As for WT7, what is your theory? Please feel free to include the motive for destroying a completely inconsequential building after the two main towers were already destroyed.
  4. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Clown Hater

    I don't even know how to respond to this because I have no idea what your point is. First, I did not find out that my friend was Muslim until I knew him for 3 years. Second, I do not think I would like a jihadist and don't envision my friend's face on the bodies of foreign Muslims I see on TV. That is crazy. Crazier still is your retarded analogy of Taco Bell. The sky in my world is not purple. What am I supposed to think. Are you saying there is a conspiracy where the moderate muslims lull the world into a false sense of security by saying the jihadists don't represent Islam all the while that is their role in the jihad. That is ludicrous. And no, I don't get your point at all.

    Here is my point. The Islamic faith has millions of followers. Most are peaceful moderate Muslims that do not subscribe to the evil parts of the Koran. A few are fundamentalists, and the jihadists belong to this group. There evil actions stains the reputation of all Muslims worldwide. As for why there are so many fundamentalists, IMO, that has very little to do with the Islamic religion. It is more a function of the anti American governments that rule the middle east.

    BTW, what I am talking about happened in the United States for over 40 years. Americans were taught all throughout the cold war that the Soviet Union and it's people were evil and our enemy. Once the cold war ended, they became our friends. Notice that the propaganda about Russians no longer exists in America.
  5. tomcorona

    tomcorona Anti republican truther


    Are you saying that in order to weaken steel, it must be raised to it's melting point and that the weakening of steel at lower temperatures is a myth that is debatable? It is called annealing Tom. Pick up a metallurgy book or thermodynamics book an see what happens to steel after it reaches it's critical annealing temperature. I case you don't have access to metallurgy books, I will tell you. The microstructure changes and the physical properties of the metal change drastically. It becomes much more malleable and loses most of its strength. The engineers that design high rise structures base the loads on the metal that will be used. If the metal loses most of its strength and can no longer support the load applied to it, it will fail, fracture, break, collapse. Got it.

    As for WT7, what is your theory? Please feel free to include the motive for destroying a completely inconsequential building after the two main towers were already destroyed.

    No...I'm not saying the steel need to be raised to it's melting temperature to weaken. That's not my point, but, let's say for argument's sake, that it was. So, would the next point of contention be that the whole structure, it's support beams both vertical and horizontal, on ALL floors, ALL heated sufficiently to cause them ALL to collapse together, at freefall speed? I can see some of the steel surrounding those particular floors, debatably, may heat up enough to cause THOSE relatively close by to weaken, but not every damn one to go react TOGETHER to form a uniform collapse at FREEFALL SPEED. Doesn't make sense. Those affected floors perhaps but not the whole damn thing. Simply timing how long they took to collapse is illogical. It would have tilted over, fell another way, maybe partially, but definately at a slower speed. NIST has backed away from their "pancake" theory (not that NIST was ever credible to begin with), the one that they took all that time to come up with in the first place? Even IF that theory were possible (which it isn't), it would certainly take long than 9 or 10 seconds to completely collapse into a nice managable pile, ready for transport to China. Yes, steel can weaken, but that's hardly the point. The point is even balsa wood would offer some resistance. Magically though, steel doesn't offer any because it's "weakened" at the top, therefore the whole thing was weak and fell down in 10 seconds. Right?
    WTC7...yes I could offer what I think are reasons for it's demise, but I will not at this time. It's much too easy to sweep everything together and say 'Well, how did it happen then?? See! You can't tell me so you're full of boloney", or, "That part of your claim doesn't stand up, so, the whole thing is boloney", which is what inevitably happens, which is counter productive IMHO. What's the matter? You don't have an answer for WTC7 that "fits" with the fable? Neither do I, and no, I don't "got it".
  6. Midas

    Midas New Member

    I didn't write the freakin' koran. I didn't write the Hadith. You are the one that wants to ignore that these are instructions and the prophet's life lessons that drive "true" muslims to kill those that leave islam for honor and yes, it is the life and misdeeds of their prophet which insprires "true" muslims to fly airplanes into buildings...or strap a bomb to themselves...like these MUSLIM ANIMALS:


    Please note that these muslim animals are holding the koran which instructs them to be "good" muslims. After all, this book has over a 100 verses of hate, intolerance, fighting and DEATH.

    If these people can blow themselves up for allah...why are you surprised they can't hijack planes and fly them into buildings?

    It is in the koran...

    It is in their 1,400 year history...

    It is just like their terrorist/pedophile prophet who founded this mess...

    And it is proven in their ACTIONS!!
  7. tomcorona

    tomcorona Anti republican truther

    Steel wasn't "weakened" enough

    Kevin Ryan, a former executive at UL was not satisfied with the NIST report, motivating him to speak out. According to Ryan, "The buildings should have easily withstood the thermal stress caused by pools of burning jet fuel." Hydrocarbon fires would not burn hot enough to weaken the steel to the point of collapse. Jet fuel specifically requires a precise ratio of fuel and air pressure for proper ignition. Furthermore, most of the jet fuel can be seen burning off in a massive fireball after the jet impacts. Investigators were kept away from ground zero while the crime scene was hauled away, disabling any proper investigation into it's collapse.

    If the steel could have been weakened, it certainly wasn't due to kerosene powered or hydrocarbon fires, especially not in 56 minutes. IF it indeed got hot enough to weaken steel, the fire was accelerated, temperature raised dramatically. Something added like, I don't know...NanoThermite?
  8. craig a

    craig a New Member

    You have really fallen off the cliff. I'm not talking about the Koran or hijacking. You. You. You posted a story you read about a teenager girl who ran away from her parents in Ohio
    because she said her father was going to kill her for converting her religion. Then you went on saying what savages they are and how horrible that is to do to a daughter. IT WASNT TRUE. AND YOU BELIEVED IT. The story had nothing to do with planes or C4 waistcoats. But you hate Muslims so much that you believed the story and you wanted to show everyone how savage they are. You let a 17 year old girl lead you around like a donkey.
  9. Blueindian65

    Blueindian65 New Member

    Yes you are wrong

    O.K this is going to take a really long time to barke down and unlike some I have better things to do than debate a hack on the internet. Watching football and making money are two of them, but I will got threw this and continue to "debate" with you. Just A first point The 4 websites you listed are all biased and are run by Truthers. It is similar to trying to debate david duke on the merits of the civil rights movement. If you could please post some independent research preferably from an peer revived not for profit journal this would be much better. Why you might ask. The answer is that academic writing requires strict standers for sources and research making it very easy to track down.

    Like I said when we first started any HACK with 10 dollars and a copy of front page can post a website and call it legit.
  10. Blueindian65

    Blueindian65 New Member

    Just a first thought

    I decided to click on one of the links provided and 9-11 piolts for truth is a joke for 60 bucks I can buy all thre "proof" what a bunch of scum bags. Who profiters off of the attack of our country. I can't belive you belive ***** like this

    More to come Real life = more important than debateing internet fantasy
  11. tomcorona

    tomcorona Anti republican truther

    All you can do Blue is call people names. You can't post anything that makes any sense to anyone except maybe yourself. You dismiss a wealth of information with all kinds of easily referencable material as "scumbags". I asked you to pick any one point and go for it. Debate (which means back and forth actual verbal or written exchange of ideas or information). Badger, insult, demean others..you do somewhat effeciently, but debate you cannot.
  12. Blueindian65

    Blueindian65 New Member

    This was typed very quickly and I will go more indeapth

    U must not be able to read because I said that I was doing other things. This has happend a few differnt times. I even told you at the outset that I would not be able to post every day. The people that started pilots for 9-11 are scumbags. My brother is a truther and i call him a dumb ass every time he brings it up it is noathing personal. As far as wealth of information goes. The only information on 9-11 piolots for truth are in the links they hide to government reports and the Authers Opions hear is a start much much much more to come

    9-11 Pilots For truth and the pentagon argument

    1.This is a for profit website. He sells his “theorys” even though he claims they are not theorys for 60 dollars w/ free shiping. It would make sense to ask for donations for the website ext or maybe like 6 dollars for a dvd and shiping, but 60 dollars is a lot for a dvd plus he also has an entier store. To say this is in bad taste would be an understatment. This is not evedince it is a for profit organization profiting off of putting dought in peoples minds without providing any type of explenation. If he knew anything of real value he would say it. Also it is impossible to be exposed as a fraud if you do not defend anything. So what is the best way to make money. Play off of a movment of conspiercy minded people and put a nice sounding name on a website with a sotre and some oppinions.
    2.The man Has not theory as to what really happened. He denies conspiercy theorys such as missles ect and says is only poking holes in the “story”. It is easy to poke holes when one does not have to offer any other story. Tom you have dune the same thing this entire debate. Please offer a cogent argument that proves the government is wrong. You can type define:cogent into google if you don't know what this word means
    3.His entire argument is not that a757 could not of been moanoverd in such a way as to hit the pentagon, but that HE DOES NOT THINK that Hani could of pulled it off. His proof from this is congecture and “ google it” weak to say the least. or what ever could of dune it. He also admints that he could of gotten lucky.
    4.His assertion about Fight 77 are writen very deceptivly as and example “Ok, now we're getting somewhere. The footnote "59, 60, 61" refers to The Flight Path Study of American 77 provided by the NTSB, which no one can find. One person claims to have called the NTSB and the NTSB says they havent done any reports/analysis for any of the aircraft of Sept 11. NTSB phone in DC (202)-314-6000. I tried, but i hit brick walls. “ When he uses wrods like brik wall ext it makes it seem like there is conspiercy of some sort to hide the info. Then he provides a link to where in fact they did release the info. This is tricky and also questions his intentions. If he did not want to be debunked he would have the real documents plasterd all over his website, but he knows that would hurt his ability to sell dvds hats and t-shirts.
    5.Tom your I mean 9-11 pilot theory was written before he would have had a chance to evaluate the evidnice because it had not been realesed yet. Rogue speculation writen trikely is not proof. Especaly when the auther concludes that it is posibble, but in his OPINION unlikley
    6.The same is true for his argument about how the hijackers took the plane over. His only argument is that if he was a pilot he would not lissen to the hijackers, but he was not the pilot and he does not know what is in the mans mind.
    7.The found the black box of the plane. So regardless of weather or not the dude from poular mechanics found it or someone else did they did find it. Also you ignored that the man form popular mechanics said that he saw the wing damage on the building.
  13. Blueindian65

    Blueindian65 New Member

    Cell Phones in 2001 and flight 93

    The didn't call form cell phones. If you have ever been on a plane there are phones in the head reast. Tod Beamer is a National Hero, and you should respect his, and the other passengers sacrifice, and not degrade what they did with conspiracy theory. Also When I said WTF would it matter if a missile shot the plane down is because it would not prove that 911 was not committed by Al-Qeda. If someone in the government had to make that choice to protect Washington because they knew the plain was hyjaked by terrost, because it was. Then like I have said that would not mean it was a conspiercy theory, just a real hard decision that someone had to make, and please do post something tangible a police report, even a news paper article that says that they found wrekage 8 miles away. Also im going to look for other plane recks where wrekage was blown very far way by the force.

    Also so you know. 911 pilots for truth is a for profit organization that sells there quote "research". That is a very scumbag thing to do.

    Also you are proboly right that I should not call people names, but sometimes you got to do what you got to do. commints on your part like "any rebutlle" and "some debate" when like a decent person im working and not pissing away time on the internet is what broke down the civility. I told you it would take me long periods of time to respond to your arguments before we started, but instead of just weighing you decided do the other. Look man I don't really care about this. I don't care that you have a cynical view of the world, and that for what ever reason you can not except what happend that day. The only truth that needs to be investigated is why do people belive anything to is writen on the internet.

    Because you said you have a hard time understanding what I say i'll sumerize reall quick.

  14. tomcorona

    tomcorona Anti republican truther

    You know what Blue? I can barely make any sense out of what you post. You describe your 'take' on whatever I post in a real scatter-brained way. A debate, I thought, went like this. "I read this...I disagree with this..BECAUSE..." and then I respond..that kind of thing. You won't directly address any simple point, other than to rant and rave. The most recent being that because someone sells something they're profiteers and therefore it's all invalid, after you characterize it in some senseless, illogical fashion. I don't think I can compete with your logic or your warped view of anything I would present, so hey, you win...Congratulations. Everything I've tried to infer/present/coax into reading/researching you dismiss before you've ever read anything. You're right and everything I've tried to convey is wrong and any information I've tried to point you to is wrong, the websites, the hundreds of scientists, architects and structural engineers that are associated with those sites, are all wrong and you're right. The witnesses, the firefighters, the police, WTC employees, all the actual airline and military pilots who've signed on to pilotsfortruth, are all way off base. But out of the cloud of confusion, there is you. Thank you for straightening me out. You're right and I was wrong. There ya go. I can't compete. My head hurts. Anybody else?
  15. tomcorona

    tomcorona Anti republican truther

    Todd Beamer didn't use a cell phone (I'm writing this down so I don't forget).
    Got it. Oh..and I was referring to the Barbara Olsen fairy tale, not Todd Beamer.

    ----Barbara Olsen. Well lets' see. First, Mr. Olsen said his wife called on a cell phone. Well she couldn't have used a cell phone wth the technology in 2001. That "high altitude" technology wasn't developed until about 2004. Google it. Then, he said she called using the plane's onboard seat phones...ok..only one problem...that plane didn't have any. Google that too. I can further explain how the 'calls' were generated but if one can't accept more basic facts.,what's the point?-----

    As per one of my previous posts.
  16. tomcorona

    tomcorona Anti republican truther

    Also so you know. 911 pilots for truth is a for profit organization that sells there quote "research". That is a very scumbag thing to do.

    Yeah I picked that up the first time around..Thanks.
  17. tomcorona

    tomcorona Anti republican truther


    Steel begins to melt at 1,500 degrees C or 2,800 degrees F. Temperatures of 250 degrees C would have no effect on the strength of steel. The explanation that the buildings collapsed because fire weakened the steel is speculative. Open air fires do not produce temperatures sufficient to deprive steel of its structural integrity. Steel framed buildings have burned 22 hours in raging infernos, and the steel skeletons remained standing. The WTC fires in the towers lasted about one hour and were limited to a few floors. Moreover, it is impossible for fire to account for the sudden, total and symmetrical disintegration of powerfully constructed buildings, much less at free fall speeds that are obtainable only with controlled demolition.
    NIST’s final report stated that of the steel available to it for examination, “only three columns had evidence that the steel reached temperatures above 250 degrees Celsius” (482 degrees Fahrenheit). The self-cleaning ovens in our home kitchens reach temperatures higher than this, and the ovens do not melt or deform.
  18. tomcorona

    tomcorona Anti republican truther

    WTC's blew up

    The two WTC towers did not collapse. They blew up and disintegrated, as did WTC 7. There is an enormous energy deficit in every account that rules out the use of explosives. Gravitational energy is insufficient to explain the pulverization of the buildings and contents and the severing of the 47 massive center core steel columns in each of the towers into convenient lengths to be picked up and loaded onto trucks; much less can gravitational energy account for the pulverization of the top floors of the towers and ejection of steel beams hundreds of feet horizontally just prior to the disintegration of the floors below.
  19. tomcorona

    tomcorona Anti republican truther

    93 shot down

    A second debris field was around Indian Lake about 3 miles from the crash scene. Some debris was in the lake and some was adjacent to the lake. More debris from the plane was found in New Baltimore, some 8 miles away from the crash. State police and the FBI initially said they didn't want to speculate whether the debris was from the crash, or if the plane could have broken up in midair. (Google PA police 911)
    Flight 93's debris field covered anywhere from three to six miles and, as CNN reported, pieces of the plane were found six to eight miles from the main impact area. Authorities also said another debris site had been cordoned off six to eight miles away from the original crash debris site.............
    People were calling in and reporting pieces of plane falling, a state trooper said. Jim Stop reported he had seen the hijacked Boeing 757 fly over him as he was fishing. He said he could see parts falling from the plane.

    And for Blue..(though I'm not sure why)http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/s_12967.html

    If anybody wants to say anything is false as to what I have posted above, please point it out and I will do my best to provide you with acceptable references proving that it is but please be specific as to what you claim is false. Please start anywhere you think I'm wrong and you're right but leave out the knee jerk reactions and try to be reasonable and I will do the same. I promise you it falls apart eventually no matter where you start, and rather quickly, if you are honest.
  20. Blueindian65

    Blueindian65 New Member

    Cool glad I win

    Thanks for the win. Guess we can considered this finished. Enjoy the dream.

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