My wife is truly the busiest working person I know. She is technology director at a major university. Her phones (three) ring, buzz and vibrate around the clock. I sit on the beach with her on TEAM calls. At least once a week she is directing a 2am technology swap of one kind or another. She is constantly under the gun directing technology infrastructure at the university and I truly do not exaggerate….. I set that stage because I see her email in box and it has many thousands of unopened emails in it. Tonight was no different. We were at the dinner table and she was on a TEAM call. She has a fifty year old professional black woman that has been with her as long as I can remember. During this call I hear my wife ask a question of this lady. The question was along the lines of a man hour report that she needs. What I heard knocked me over…. This lady quite literally screamed at my wife, “If you would bother to open my emails you would know that answer”….. My wife turned red and muted the call. She laid her head in her arm and said to me….. They will not allow me to correct her. I have to take this abuse from her daily because she reports any interaction to Human Resources…. In other words, the lady is actively trying to make trouble for people. Specifically white people….. Now I know this lady. I have met her and spoke with her at university functions and before today, I would have called her quite friendly and professional. And the fact is, that up until about two years ago, she was the closest ally my wife had in her office. Now my wife, as well as everyone else in leadership positions fear this woman. Why? In all seriousness, why? I’m telling you, if a youngster had spoken to me in that tone, they would be washing soap out of their mouth once their backside cooled down. If an employee spoke to me like that, they would be picking up their severance check. Folks if this current movement is turning professional people in professional positions into troublemaking children, then you need to look hard at the results of your actions. I am in disbelief at what I just witnessed and I am an active employer. You don’t think that interaction will play over in my mind when I interview a potential black employee?
It is very important at this time in our Society, that The People be distracted by an Ideology of Division, using any reason that can and will deflect their attention from the Reality of the continuous assault on Freedom and our Federal Republic, in order to accomplish the Greater Good of destroying the Constitution.
Just assuming that you're going to always take your wife's side in any co-worker dispute, why is it important to you that the other woman is black? What makes that detail so relevant to the situation? Why would you say that this interaction will play over in your mind for a black applicant and, let's say, not a female applicant? Do you see where I'm going here? My opinion of most people's prejudices is that they are unaware, for the most part, that they even have prejudices. We all have some type of prejudice against something and we are usually the last to ones to be aware of them. Before she retired, my wife was a Vice Provost at a university. The Provost and the University President were her superiors. Both were volatile type leaders in meetings and one-on-ones. My wife refused to let either of them treat her unprofessionally. She would call them out for raising their voices, slamming a hand on a table, or lying to hear, and she let them know that she would never lie for them. None of the behaviors these two leaders were exhibiting were allowed in the workplace and were considered ethics violations, but no one else dared stand up to them except my wife. Now, tell me two things: What was the President and the Provost's gender? Also, what ethnicity were they?
Until my wife told me that she had been firmly instructed by her human resource department to not engage with the lady, then gender, race nor age played any part in the affair. My whole point is that until recently this was a model professional woman. Only in recent months has she attempted to engage her superiors in incriminating circumstances. She has become embittered for one reason or another and it appears it is directed at her caucasion peers and counterparts. Why would a professional black woman with almost twenty years invested in working for the university change her demeanor so radically in recent months that the human resource department will not allow her superiors to engage her in correction?
How do you know that she is only embittered towards white people? You couldn't possibly know all of her interactions with every other employee of the university. Are you not seeing your own bias here? Because it is coming through loud and clear from this side with each post. Maybe this just wasn't a well thought out post?
Perhaps it isn't a well thought out post. I have been guilty of that more than once.... However I won't argue the validity of my lack of bias. I believe my life's choices and commitments are a better measure of my lack of bias much more than my words are...... The unsaid elephant in the room here is the obvious. This discussion is far less about a single employee interaction and far more to do with a major university implementing questionable policy in regards to one person. That policy being to allow that one person to act in an unprofessional manner to avoid difficult and potential legal HR issues. This is akin to allowing a child to be disrespectful simply because you don't want to deal with the issues that surround correcting that child. While in the short term that may seem somewhat meaningless, in the long term it damages the way that child will interact with people the remainder of his life. You see what I am getting at here? We pandered to BLM protests two summers ago and there are now long term very damaging new issues we have to acknowledge. As long as we keep telling people that "white privilege" exists, then we will continue to fuel this fire. We have got to consider the consequence of this line of thinking.
Listen, there were always those people at my university and I reckon just about any large organization that were royal pains in the ass. Maybe they were unhappy in their current position, or they had been treated badly, or had some negative interaction that surfaced in the course of their duties. I still have no idea why you said that you would have hesitations about hiring a black person just because this one black woman at another institution was having issues with her superiors. It kind of says that you are generalizing the behavior of one black person to the entire rest of the black people in the workplace. Can you clarify how you came to such a conclusion? As far as the HR issue goes, HR was one of the worst departments at our institution. They were avoided at all costs by almost everyone. One thing they try very hard to do, is not get sued for discrimination or any other cause because it looks bad for the institution. And believe me, I've worked with a few people that definitely crossed some lines. Universities are not unique in this regard. Most lawsuits that get to the level of litigation are settled out of court. It's just cheaper to settle than to fight it out in court whether you are right or wrong in any given situation. I'd say that your wife's HR Dept. is just doing the C.Y.A. thing with regard to this unhappy employee.
Specifically, I said this scenario would play out in my mind. I didn't say I would have hesitations. No more hesitations than I would hiring anyone. I'll just shoot straight here. There are a number of occasions over the course of history where the tenor of one person or people was designed to elicit confrontation. Hitler used his words quite effectively to persuade a nation to eliminate an entire race. Yet when you listen to his speeches individually and on their own merit, they actually sound quite reasonable given the time and circumstance. Here we are telling an entire generation that white privilege has and continues to hold them captive. Listen to the words and on their own merit they sound reasonable. Dr. King himself argued a mans integrity over his anger and that is the correct message. We all have to live with one another and this "white privilege" message is doing nothing but whipping people into a froth. It's no wonder that we are seeing the turmoil that is growing in our nation. This damned "white privilege" message has got to be stopped.
Well, I guess that we're veering off on a tangent here but I think I see where you are headed. I'm not sure exactly what the scenario you laid out has to do with white privilege but you have definite feelings about the topic. Do you believe that white privilege doesn't and never did exist? Do you think that it completely disappeared at some point? At what point was that in our history, because I would like to know exactly how and why white privilege suddenly became irrelevant to black people's lives. Have you spoken to some black people that told you that the issue of white privilege was now solved? I'm asking because you seem to have definite opinions about the concept of white privilege. Maybe you have some insights that you can share on this issue. I think you're right about one thing. There certainly are people that are whipped into a froth about the issue of white privilege. I'm just not sure the right people are getting angry for the right reasons when you analyze who is mad about what. Please elaborate. I'm really enjoying this conversation. I hope you are too. This is exactly the type of dialogue you originally came to this forum to have. Is that still correct or has your perspective changed since then?
I am not naïve enough to believe that there aren’t places where white privilege and racism exist. There will always be zealots among us. But think about this. How many migrants come to this country each year and grab a slice of the American dream?…. This isn’t 1950’s America anymore. Anyone willing to work and apply themselves can achieve a slice of the dream. And one more thing to think about. When has anger ever achieved anything worthwhile?…. My biggest beef with Obama was that he never once said that he was the vision of a black man that climbed to the top. If he really wanted to inspire hope, that one message would have given hope to every young black American in this country. Now instead of hope, we give them anger. And how do you think anger will do for them? Anger is a destructive force and will not help a person achieve any dreams he may have.
So white privilege and racism do exist. But it makes some folks angry if black people point it out? I can post statistics that show you just how much better it is to be a white person in this country than it is to be a black person in the same country. From birth to generational wealth, being born white is just a complete and total advantage no matter how you look at it. It should be unsurprising to anyone that looks at the history of racism in this country. Hundreds of years of slavery where blacks were merely a commodity. Decades after slavery where blacks were openly lynch, discriminated against by the government, treated as second-class citizens, redlined, imprisoned, killed by police almost daily, and herded into deteriorating schools from early childhood. Do you even believe that it is possible after that kind of historical treatment to not see the role white privilege plays in black people's lives? You certainly can't be that naïve. The lasting effects of that kind of treatment does not disappear over night. The effects are generational. In other words, if my father and his father, and his father couldn't overcome the downward pressures racism and white privilege had on black households, what chance would I really have? White privilege is alive and well in this country and the only people that seem to be denying it are those that are still benefitting from it. Funny how that works.
Well Joe…. Several years back there was a very successful black NFL quarterback that chose to kneel during the playing of the national anthem. A man that was cashing a larger paycheck than 95% of his viewing audience chose to kneel in protest to white privilege. It didn’t end up very well for him… I am fully aware of the history and that is exactly what it is…. History….. Are all present day Germans tainted by Naziism? I am out in the professional world and a big slice of my customer base are black men. And as a side note, they are my best payers as well….. But these men didn’t buy the “poor little me” message. They went out and made something of themselves. Any… And I emphasize ANY able bodied man or woman willing to apply themselves can be successful in 21st century America. On the other hand, anyone that chooses to be mired in the mud of the past and remain angry about it are destined for failure. Nobody has ever been put in a position to excel simply because they were angry. Edit…. Along these same lines of thinking. My father was one of life’s miserable failures. By any measure of the word, he failed both professionally and personally. By your measure, I too should be a failure. I would like to believe rather that I chose to use his failure as an example to propel me to be a better man…… Isn’t that the message that we should be sending?
I feel that we are slipping off into another tangent here and it has become obvious that you have not read many, if any, definitions or descriptions of white privilege just by the way you talk about the subject and how you funnel down into individual examples rather than broad sociological constructs. White privilege never has and never will be understood from the point of view of the single individual but can be understood by those willing to see it on a societal level. I think a definition/description of the system of white privilege as it exists and has existed in this country would be valuable at this point. WHAT IS WHITE PRIVILEGE? Privilege, particularly white or male privilege, is hard to see for those of us who were born with access to power and resources. It is very visible for those to whom privilege was not granted. Furthermore, the subject is extremely difficult to talk about because many white people don’t feel powerful or as if they have privileges others do not. It is sort of like asking fish to notice water or birds to discuss air. For those who have privileges based on race or gender or class or physical ability or sexual orientation, or age, it just is- it’s normal. The Random House Dictionary defines privilege as “a right, immunity, or benefit enjoyed only by a person beyond the advantages of most.” In her article, “White Privilege and Male Privilege,” Peggy McIntosh (1995) reminds us that those of us who are white usually believe that privileges are “conditions of daily experience… [that are] universally available to everybody.” Further, she says that what we are really talking about is “unearned power conferred systematically” Do you understand the concept of unearned power conferred systematically? You didn't do anything to enjoy your conferred power except being born the right color, the right gender, the right sexual orientation. It was already there waiting for you to arrive whether you chose to take advantage of it or not. Whether you do or whether you don't, doesn't change the fact that it already exists for the right people.
Two immediate responses…. No, I have not read any definitions of white privilege. And I don’t mean this to sound snarky, but I don’t read about UFO’s or Loch Ness monsters either. Point being, because it has been authored, that does not add merit to the credibility. You and I sit on different sides of the Bible argument and that’s fine. You would tell me it is a book created by man for man’s own selfish purposes. I would say the same to you in response to the white privilege argument. If this were 1962 rather than 2022, I might buy into it. In my mind, white privilege is a man made issue created to cause adversity among people of different skin colors for the benefit of the few at the top because it certainly does not help those that are supposed to be the victims of it. I was born short, shy and very average looking. I could have believed that I was born inferior to tall handsome chiseled men but I chose not to see myself in those terms…… We were supposed to have stopped labeling people many years ago and it was the right thing to do. When we label people using the white privilege label, we are are the ones handicapping them. Not their skin color.
“unearned power conferred systematically” And what, exactly, do you think affirmative action is, @JoeNation?
Of course, white privilege is a man-make issue. Where else would the issue hail from, outer space? Not to be snarky either, but it seems pretty obvious that this issue only could arise from those people that are feeling the disadvantages that are the result of having a privileged class putting them in that position. As Peggy McIntosh explained above, many white people do not see their own privilege and you are certainly no exception. Any privileges you have just seems normal and you obviously believe everyone has access to the same exact privileges you have. The fact is that many, many groups simply do not. Statistics confirm this pretty conclusively. I am convinced that you and others that believe as you do will go to their graves never seeing their own conferred privileges. To acknowledge that any type of advantage exists for these people in spite of all of the historical evidence supporting this dynamic would just be too damaging to their pride. There were so many direct questions in this thread that I asked you that you simply couldn't answer and that tells me quite a bit about your grasp of this issue. There simply are no answers that would support your position and you opted to not attempt an answer in your own defense. I think that doesn't make you a bad person, but it tells me that you are simply not ready to hear the hard truths. I'm OK with that. These are weighty issues and you have to be ready to tackle them with an open mind. I just don't see that happening.
Let's get it straight Joe . . . White privilege is not a man-made issue . . . it's a man-made label. .
A created issue that only benefits those at the top. I have no idea if this is attached correctly. The article is in the Black Enterprise Daily. BLM Co-Founder Patrisse Khan-Cullors Under Fire for Purchasing Million-Dollar Homes in White Neighborhoods https://www.blackenterprise.com/blm...der-fire-for-purchasing-million-dollar-homes/
I am going to exit this conversation. I will fully concede that yes Joe, you have me beat hands down with formal education as well as your ability to find and recite statistics. I will also say that my experience with people in the real world vastly exceeds your similar experience. Statistics mean nothing to a man that wants work to feed his family..... If the halls of formal education and the ideals of the left want to hold human beings back and deepen the divide among us, then by all means keep on labeling people. Keep making them angry and destroying their ability to succeed...... If you genuinely want to help people get on their feet and do better for themselves, remove the labels and division just as the vast majority of us in the real world did long ago.
