Conservative vs. Liberal Thinking

So much for saving gun accidents for another discussion!

 

Look, I have never once suggested banning guns. I have said previously that I come from a long line of Minnesota hunters. Everyone in my family hunts. I haven't since I was a kid but that is because I move around the country too much to stay connected with a group of hunting buddies.

What I have advocated for many times is a sane gun policy in this country. Leave hunters alone! They are hurting no one and if there happens to be a hunting accident, at least they knew the risk going in. My younger brother was shot with a 12 gauge shotgun pointblank with a steel pellet load right in his abdomen in a hunting accident when he was 18. He came close to dying but survived and I still would defend the rights of those that wish to hunt for sport.

Where I draw the line is people that think guns make them safer or even a little taller. Guns are simply tools not safety nets that are there when the police don't show up. The more guns brought into society, the less safe society is. If people are going to bring guns into society, they should marry those guns. In other words, anything that is done with that gun from the time it is purchased to the time it is turned in and melted down, is the responsibility of the one who owns it. Fine own all the guns you want but take responsibility for that ownership. Make a gun such a liability that nobody would want to own one. That is a sane gun policy that would keep people from recklessly owning assault weapons and easily stolen handguns. Gun shows would close down over night.

We don't have a problem with guns in this society, we have a problem with gun ownership and I don't mean just the criminals. Many, many legally purchased guns end up in the hands of criminals either through theft or straw purchases. This only increases the market for more guns. Guns are just too damn available necessitating the need for more guns. Who wins in this scenario? Gun manufacturers! Who loses in this scenario? Anyone caught in the cross-fire.

I've said this all before and it falls on deaf ears when one of the gun crowd is in the discussion. They want to keep guns as unrestricted as possible, available as possible, and put the burden of guns on society rather than the gun owners. Where else do we take this approach to something as dangerous as guns?

 

Here's another one and it sadly resulted in one of those 35000 gun deaths per year.

http://www.wdam.com/Global/story.asp?S=13441311

 

You may as well be a spokesperson for the Brady campaign. In this fight you don't get to take a middle ground and think you're doing gun owners a favor. BTW, the 2nd isn't there for your hunting rights in case you've forgotten.

Why are you so focused on the weapon? What difference does it make if people have a gun or a baseball bat? The story I posted had two men come in against one unarmed man with BASEBALL BATS and committed one of the most heinous crimes I've ever heard of. Wiped out his whole family. But in your opinion, that crime should be allowed to happen every time for the greater good of society. So somebody else doesn't have a gun accident. That's insane.

There are car accidents every day. I still have to get in a car every day and drive. The car is to get to work. The gun is for protection from threats. The steak knife is there to cut a steak. All can help you or kill you but you decide to pick out one you don't like.

You are a gun banner through and through so don't bother pretending to be a supporter of anybody's rights. You're more worried about your moral high ground.

 

Oh no. What a shame. The victims were spared! Don't open that link moen. Wouldn't want to ruin your day!

BTW, are moen's numbers supposed to represent total gun deaths or total gun deaths by 'accident'? Big difference. He claims by accident, which is what I'm saying is total BS. I can believe there may be 35k deaths by gun a year. Most of them being justified.

The NRA presents several stories like this a month in every magazine. Unfortunately, they're only reported at the local level. The national media tends to shy away from positive stories.

What seems to be missed in all this is that we live in a supposedly free country. If somebody is scared to death to own any firearms, then you don't have to own one! Don't buy them! But don't try to impose your will on everybody else and force them to risk their lives as well. There are already more laws than we need in place.

We don't live in a nice world. If you want to pretend that there aren't people out there who are less than animals and who have no problem breaking in your home and killing your whole family, than go ahead and pretend. Pretend, ignore it, make excuses. Whatever you have to do to hold your moral high ground. Just leave everybody else alone.

 

Just a quick search and from the Brady Campaign so it isn't going to underestimate I wouldn't think...

Deaths

Assault - 12,632

Suicide - 17,352

Accidents - 613

By Police Acton - 351

Unknown - 276

Total - 31,224

------------------------------------------------

Injuries (survived)

Assault - 56,626

Suicide - 3,797

Accidents - 17,215

By Police Action - 984

Total - 78,622


http://www.bradycampaign.org/xshare/Facts/Gun_Death_and_Injury_Stat_Sheet.pdf

Of course numbers are just numbers and I didn't see anything that said how many were self defense, how many were murders, etc. And I do notice a rather large difference between these Brady numbers and the number Moen posted for injuries. But, maybe his number was from a different year or maybe representing some different set of numbers.

 

Yeah. I'd say the difference between 613 and Moen's supposed 35,000 accidental deaths by firearm is significant. And you're right, they're not going to under-estimate. Thanks for posting.

Out of 300+ million people, I'd say those numbers aren't bad.

 

Big gun/NRA advocate (the blast 'em mentality), check. Glenn Beck, Rush Limpbaugh worshipers, check. You hate gays too, right?
Sorry..just trying to update my stereotypical perception of right wing behavior. Currently up to date already though. I appreciate further confirmation however.

 

OK I have to interject here Vess can you kindly show me were Moen has advocated a ban on the ownership of fierarms, I have looked but coudnt find any reference to banning, he has called for tighter controls which is actualy sensible or do you disagree with that and if so why?

 

Even though you can never produce a post by me saying that I am for banning guns outright and I've just written that what we need is a sane gun policy in this country, I must be for banning guns because obviously any reasonable restrictions equal banning guns.

This is exactly the gun crowd's mentality. Never mind actual words, it is the long held preconceptions that can't change. Again, back to the OP, can't change a position once it is taken. No new input, facts, or data can alter a closed mind. Base every decision on as few facts as possible and ignore everything that contradicts them. You're such a conservative! Have trouble making friend in school too? Now everyone is against you and only guns can make you feel safe. Oh the things we learn from childhood.

Explain why, as easily the highest educated person in this forum, I have somehow made it over 50 years on this planet without the need for a gun? I feel safe every single day without fearing someone will break into my house and kill me. What gives me this security? Oh yeah, reasonable precautions against such things like locks, dogs, an alarm system, a neighborhood watch, I sleep very well at night. The only gun incident in the last 15 years in my neighborhood was a guy on the next block that pointed a gun at a driver who had pulled over to take a cell phone call in front of his house. One loner feeling like his gun added a couple of inches God didn't see fit to give him. I have nothing against guns, just something against those who have no business owning them. The ones that feel threatened by society and everyone in it. Frankly, people like you. P.S. You're still 5 foot 2"

 

Really, dr moen? You really wrote this?

 

Well, I guess if dr moen says so it must be gospel- afterall...as is his claim...he is the highest educated person on this forum. How can you argue with his incredible insight & intelligence? He knows waaayyyyy more about the real world because he has studied it, dammit! Forget that he exists in the vacuum of coed life, he's says it so it has to be good enough for the rest of us!

 

Your ignorance is showing - almost as much as Tom's.

 

Well, it's a little hard to attain higher degrees that don't exist. Comments like this certainly bring out the anti-intellectuals in the crowd. Just try to remember, education is optional but then again so is ignorance. I've made my choice. Don't hate me for yours.

 

It is easy to assert that you are the most educated person on the forum. But it takes a man of character to actually divulge your education. Please tell us about both your undergraduate degrees as well as any graduate degree(s) you have earned in your life. Since you work at an unaccredited school, we need assurance that your degrees don't suffer the same problem.

 

You want to fill you in on my personal life because that is what everyone does here? No matter what I told you or anyone else, you'd just use the knowledge to make more stupid assumptions like, "Since you work at an unaccredited school" . If you need assurance, ask NO NO.

 

This only proves that you are a cowardly clown who relies upon the anonymity of the internet in order to survive on this pathetic little forum. They reason I assume that the school you work at is unaccredited is because I can't think of another reason why you wouldn't divulge where you work. Nobody is asking for your job title or real name. There is no security threat by divulging the name of the school. The only rational explanation left is that either you are lying or you are embarrassed by the truth.

The same scenario applies for you education level. I have a BS in Materials Science & Engineering (Metallurgy) from Lehigh University. I have no shame or fear in divulging that information and can't for the life of me figure out why you would. If you want to make the assertion that you are the most educated person on this forum, then be prepared to back it up. Now go back to clown school and work on your PHD.

 

Really! Really! You can't think of any other reason not to divulge personal information on the internet? What possible difference could it make to the conversation where I work or what I do? My opinion is simply my opinion and whether you want to slap a label on me for being in academia or for any other reason is your own business and you should learn to mind it.

No one here asks for personal information that isn't given except you. The fact that you do it so often is a good enough reason in itself to keep you in the dark. I've never asked you what you do or your educational level because I mind my own business. You are allowed to assume, guess, invent, lie, or pretend whatever you want but knowing more about me or anyone else in this forum isn't your privilege and if I was going to share any personal information, it wouldn't be with you. You can believe what I say or don’t. It’s all the same to me.

 

Hey! I was just assuming Lehigh is a girl. Nothing wrong with that. Definitely has some pretty severe mood swings. It could be hormonal :0

 

Funny, the right is always accused of being anti-gay but on this forum it's dr moen & tomc who use gay references as ridicule. Will the hypocrisy of these two stooges ever end?