Liberty...what is it?

Not really. The only question is, how much did, for example, European governments and secret services actually know about those measures ...
https://wcd.coe.int/ViewDoc.jsp?id=960097

Christian

 

Sorry, Moen, but this is a poor analogy. A better one would go something like this: What if President (yes, we do still call him that) Bush found out that terrorists were going to shoot down a jet in order to kill Americans (no regard for who specifically). Could/Should he then order the NATIONAL SECURITY Agency to do extensive domestic espionage against those people who helped to set up and were planning to perpetrate the attack? Would the ends justify the means? You bet they do. And I would only hope that the Supreme Court upholds his side.

In your analogy, you've completely gone off the deep end by implying that the President would/could/should shoot someone in order to stop a plane from being blown up. Of course the President isn't going to assassinate the Whip to save a planeful of people. He's going to (as he SHOULD be) pre-emptively catching these people through domestic espionage efforts before it comes to making a decision as to whether or not to even let the Whip on the PLANE!

And I still haven't seen an example of ONE PERSON's rights being violated as a result of the Patriot Act from this country.

~AJ

 

You really love to go off in strange tangents. The yellow star was a side thing. The main point was that our rights are being curtailed by the patriot act and other unAmerican acts by Bush. I know that you can not dispute that by the fact that you got all caught up on this unimportant detail. Odd debating technique

 

I may not have come up with the best on the spot analogy but yours is too convoluted to be at all apt.

 

Danr, I was hoping that you would have answered by now, but alas, we are still all waiting for you to name just one "liberty" you have had to give up because of President Bush?

 

Again I say Danr you brought it up not me I just asked the obviouse question and again you failed to respond other than with sarcasm.

De Orc Kiss

 

when one persons rights are denied all of our rights are denied. That takes us back to the yellow star thing.

 

OK so when I mention 'You Mentioning the Yellow Star' Im 'OUT THERE' but it is fine for You to keep on refering to it??
Also please try and answer the question posed by Old Dan if it is not too much of a Inconvenience.

De Orc

 

We are still waiting for you Danr to name just one "liberty" you have had to give up because of President Bush?

​

 

Old Dan - I think you are asking a direct question to an issue that won't really be known until some time into the future. Tyranny can be very patient, and liberty can slip away unnoticed. Is having your library check-out records reported to the federal government a loss of liberty? Maybe, but it doesn't seem relevant at this time, and who really cares. How about being subjected to search in airports? It's for our own good, so maybe that isn't a loss. Federal oversight of education? It used to be under local control, but maybe it will work better. Harmonization of US law with international law? Maybe laws that apply to US citizens that aren't passed by Congress won't be a big deal. Record high funding of the IMF by the US under Bush? Sure it's a lot of money, and nobody knows where it goes; but maybe it is irrelevant or will even do some good. Creation of a secret police force under the Patriot Act? There aren't any records of abuse of the power, and it's meant to fight terrorism, so maybe it's for the best. Forcing military personnel to serve past their enlistment? We are at war after all. Wiretapping? They only do this with suspected terrorists, so it must be okay. Taking of property involuntarily for private use? I think someone said that something will be done about it someday, so it's probably under control. Restrictions on the transfer of funds out of the country? Why would anyone except a criminal want to do that anyway!

Does any of this rise to the standard you set. Probably not. But I can't help thinking that things just aren't as free as they were 30 years ago. I used to work with a very bright man who worked in a large number of different countries during his working career, some of them with very little in the way of civil liberties. The way he explained it was that the people in those oppressive countries weren't bad people and he was never mistreated. But there are just so many rules and regulations about all aspect of life that just about everyone is in violation of something at all times. And when it becomes politically useful to do so, someone inevitably uses that information against the individual if they are in a position to do so. Maybe that's where we are heading.

You asked a very good question. I wish I had a better response, but all I really have is a long term concern for the health and survival of the Republic in the form it was meant to be.

 

I mentioned the yellow star because Old Dan (and you )keep hammering on the completely UNIMPORTANT question of my personal experience of oppression. And yes to get that hung up on a minor point can get pretty out there.

 

Frog in a boiling pot.

 

Just as I suspected, the question was too hard for you to answer. So here is another one for you Danr: Think real hard and tell us what you were legally able to do, lets say 6 years ago, that you can't legally do now?

Try and be brief and on yes here is another message for you:370HSSV 0773H

 

At least my analogy is plausible.

 

Danr please read all my posts on this subject carefuly, I have not once asked you for your personal experiances on the issue. What I have done is respond to your comments, only to have you personaly attack me at every turn. The question I asked was what liberties have been lost? I agree there have been Invasions of privacy not arguing that. If you can not answer then just say so it is not a difficult thing to do.

Cloud that is a very good response and you do raise some good points as well (Danr take note) one rather large difference between the US and a number of past Dictatorships is that you have the right to vote the Goverment out they did not. Therfore the way to protect any violation of what you see as a erosion of your Liberty is through the Ballot box.

De Orc

 

Many believe that W never won those elestions.

 

Here we are again I have not mentioned any Election but you choose to change the context, all I havs said is that you have a oppertunity to vote into office the party you prefer in a Dictatorshio you do not. Are you saying that the Presidential election was rigged? how about those for Congress & the Senate? Your President does not govern America by himself he needs the consent of those in the 2 houses, if they disagree strongly enough they have the right to remove him from office.
As for your assertion 'Many believe that W never won those elestions' I totaly agree many do but on the other hand many think that he did win, therfore it is a mute question and not what we are talking about.

De Orc

 

Loss of franchise is loss of an IMPORTANT liberty.

 

OKI dont disagree with that premis at all, now I ask you who has lost there right to vote?

De Orc

 

Black people in Florida.