Terrorism, 9-11 and the official story

I just don't see how you can possibly sit there and say that Bush is responsible for every single shortcoming that this country has had in the last 5 years. I mean, honestly, we were having problems in the middle east for a little while before Bush took office, too, you know. I suppose you want to tell me that Hurricane Rita and Katrina were Bush's fault, too, along with this conspiracy that Bush was actually trying to make America fear everybody because he told Saudis to fly planes into the towers , right?

Come on, Moen, the shortcomings of this country at the moment are not all the Presidents fault, any more than the shortcomings of the country under any other president were that person's fault. (Okay, except maybe Nixon....)

I think that now more than ever, our country needs to support the president, at the very least for making the tough decisions, even if you don't like the OUTCOMES, because otherwise America is only going to keep on this path of factionalism and dividedness. Remember what was said by President Lincoln in the 19th century: "A house divided cannot stand."

America was severely divided by the last two presidential elections, and look what is happening now: people are losing faith in the system, which works very well when people believe in its value and worth.

I'm a pretty staunch Republican, but if a Democrat (yes, even Kerry) had won office these last two elections, or when Clinton was in office, I would support them based on the fact that I think we should support the president (who actually does know more than we do - crazy, I know - about the current world affairs) even if we disagree with his decisions.

Liberal-minded individuals for a large part DO NOT support the president, and I think that needs to change right now. Bush-bashing is no more good to us than Clinton-bashing was five years ago.

 

Nixon Lover

 

Like Nixon, "I am not a crook!"

 

"I'd be far less likely to believe that there was any kind of conspiracy behind 9/11 than I would be to believe that it was just administration incompetence."

There was no conspiracy, just leftist lies.

However, the leftist help create the security breakdowns that caused 911.

Don't forget it started with Jimmy Carter who made it illegal for political take outs.
Never mind he brought back into the middle east those crazy Iranian Clerics.
They could have been taken out so easy in France and Iran would not be the Islamic nation it is today.

Then you had the ACLU tear down profiling, etc...

Plus you forget that the head of the CIA and FBI under Bush during 911 were Clinton appointments.
Plus you forget that the army military intelligence units brought the 911 people to Clinton's staff's attention but his lawyers said it would be an infridgement on their rights to pursue the matter. Heck they weren't even citizens.

Read the 911 report that was generated by both political parties.

As for Israel. I guess it is wrong in the leftist eyes to back the only true democracy in the middle east. I guess they feel if all the jews were allowed to be killed this would be a better world for then the arab muslims would love us. News flash. The arab muslims kill alot more Christians then Jews and have already destroyed major Christians nations in that region. As long as there are non-muslims and Islam is allowed to be the main thought line of the middle east, there will be Jihad. The saudi flag has the sword of Jihad on it. Our only saving grace is that the Sunni's love killing the Shia as much as they enjoy killing Christians and Jews.

And do not forget it was a Democrat President who pushed for Israel to be a nation state, Truman. And it was the Democrat Party that were Israels biggest supporters until the party leadership took a left wing tilt with Carter.

Carter still gets arab money you know. They pay him to speak at conferences and fly him around the world. Don't believe me, look it up.

 

Well, I didn't say every single shortcoming, you did. The major short comings however, I blame the administration (that's Bush and all his cronies) for because for the last five years, they and the Republican controlled congress have been in charge of the country. It's impossible to reasonably point a finger else where. If you'll open your eyes and take a look, most of the country is coming to the same conclusion.

No, just his lackey's inadequate response. Again with the incompetence.

I think I already explained this, see previous post.

So you are of a mind that you never hold your leaders responsible for their decisions? That must be very convenient for you being a Republican and all.

The country has never been more divided thanks to George Bush and his policies. And you just want everyone to just get along no matter what he does? BTW I'm from the land of Lincoln. No quotes necessary.

I seem to remember the Republicans not only going after the elected president during the Clinton years but also his wife. They set a new standard of viciousness with personal attacks that has yet to be reconciled. I'll believe Republican support when and if I ever see it.

Nor do blacks, fiscally conservative Republicans, the CIA, our allies, seniors, and so on. But AJ, if you say we need to just support the president, that's good enough for me. *Rolly eye thing*

P.S. Which Fraterity do you belong to down there anyway?

 

Personally I am not really as liberal as you may think. I am big time in favor of a strong private sector with power house businesses that bring the goods to market. I am also in favor of making a fair profit on a level playing field. I am not in favor of oppressive taxes that squelch growth. I am very aware of the gross inefficiencies of government. I do not like big government poking its nose into people's lives but we do need some regulation (child labor, food inspection, etc...). My real problem is with these particular people running the country right now, I simply do not trust them.
My whole point is that there are many coincidences (they may really be just coincidences) that raise suspicions. This group are known far and wide for being disciplined at keeping secrets (they don't leak, except for the Rove thing), they are also know for being very tough on anyone who crosses them, if anyone could pull it off it would be them. And that Carlyle group thing really is wierd.
BTW if holding hands with high level Saudis is normal I'd like to see all of those links of US leaders doing it
http://www.dailystar.com.lb/admin/storage/articles/20054252345520.leadreg.JPG

 

What major shortcomings, exactly? 9/11? Placing the "blame" for that on Bush is only denying yourself the openmindedness to see who blame should really be placed on: extemist terrorists. You don't seem to be seeing that if you think George Bush engineered those attacks. Deficits in the US? Republicans for the last fifty years have been trying to create a fiscal crisis in the country that would force leadership on both sides of the aisle to rethink policies on entitlement programs so that we could begin to make the government small and more accountable to the individual. Our spending and not raising taxes at the same time is a good indicator if that, which is no more than basic Republican ideology and not Bush's "agenda" here. A poor response to the hurricanes? I blame that on the lack of states to accept federal government help before a major disaster. If FEMA had been allowed to step in to Louisiana before Katrina, they would have much more efficient, even in the two days they had before the hurricane, at getting people out of the area. Plus, if the Army Corps of Engineers had been granted their requests for funding UNDER CLINTON to shore up the levees in New Orleans to make them strong enough to resist a Cat 4 hurricane, perhaps the widespread devastation that we saw there would not have occured.

I never said that. I simply make the point that holding one person (in this case, President Bush) responsible for everything is to me a little bit ignorant of the entire process of government and the history of decision-making and serves little purpose but to divide people further. Place the blame where it belongs, on everybody in some part.

Do you honestly think the country wouldn't have been divided if John Kerry had been elected? Of course it would. That's because no one would have supported his policies either. John Kerry would have been horrible for this country. But, yes, ideally, I want everyone to get along no matter what. Don't you?

Whoa there buddy. The Democrats have been WAY more vicious to Bush than Republicans EVER were to Clinton. Plus there's the fact that more people liked Clinton, so even if the Republicans were playing personal attacks (not all too uncommon from either party, really), not as many payed attention to them or fought FOR those personal attacks as so many Democrats are doing to Bush right now (and as you are yourself).

Blacks are traditionally and demographically associated with the Democratic party, so there's no logic in that argument from you. Fiscally conservative Republicans and the CIA don't like Bush because he's doing what this country needs - to firm up our national defenses by spending more than a million or two annually on the project. Something no Democrat has ever done because they were afraid to. Our allies have always been a joke for the most part - they've only stood with us through the good times. Every time something bad comes around, where are they? They go run and hide with their tails between their legs under the table of the UN. The only ones brave enough to stand up to anyone have been the British. They recognized that a fight in the Middle East would take the strength of the entire world, and not just the Americans, and they rightly helped us. Seniors don't like Bush because he's trying to reform their benefits, something they shouldn't (IMO) get from my taxes anyways, since on the current system I will never get my own entitlement benefits when I get to be 65. Why should I pay for Joe Shmo's retirement pension knowing full well that I won't get my money's worth when I'm that age? That's just unfair to my entire generation.

So let's just be clear that the people you say have a beef with Bush and his administration are only doing so because Bush is trying to make better a failing system, one caused in some parts by the half-century long reign of Democrats over the Congress and the Presidency.

Who says I do belong to one, and why would that matter anyway?

 

^^^ all this mess is why i'm never going to be involved in politics. all you need to know about 9-11 is that the government screwed tehir information. we lost 3000 people, and they've lost quadruple that or more. we win. the end.

 

A body count does not a winner (or loser) make. It doesn't matter how many have died on their side compared to how many on our side. The only way to tell when we have won for certain is to go for the rest of our lives without hearing or seeing another terrorist attack on any people in any country in any way at any time in the world. (Don't hold your breath. It'll be a little while.)

 

ah, but what if we completely wipe out their entire population of terrorists? then would that not ensure the safety from attacks?

 

As I said, Julz,

If that's the course of action that will stop all the attacks, then so be it. My point to you was that the numbers of how many have died on either side are more or less irrelivant to that actual cause. (There is obviously humanitarian concern for those numbers, but they do not reflect how well we are doing or how poorly we are doing. I just don't want anyone to mistake my comment for not caring that many Americans have died, because I do.)

 

oh i was just kidding silly. i realise theres a whole humanitarian effort. i was voted most humanitarianistic youth in my church, i know about H.aid. i just dont like politics or people who flip flop.

 

"Every time we put a Republican in office to try and figure it out, we get the shaft".

This is not liberal thinking. A liberal is suppose to be open minded and objective.

 

Moen why are you so mad at Bush.

When Bush first became President he handed out an olive branch to the Democrats and kept many Clinton Democrats in his office. George Tenet was appointed to head the CIA by Clinton and Bush carried him over. Louis Freeh was appointed to head the FBI by Clinton and Bush carried him over. Those are the two most visible examples but there were hundreds of Clinton Staffers that never got the pink slip from Bush.
And even now Bush is constantly sending his father along with Bill Clinton on fact finding missions to disaster areas.

As for the economy, more families have two cars then ever before. More families own homes then ever before. People have more down time then ever before. The economy is doing fine and that is with major hurricanes and terrorism.

As for some european nations. They love us in Eastern Europe for they appreciate what we did in the cold war. The western european nations do not need us anymore and we are economic competition. Isn't that the reason why they are trying to form the European Union?

But it is ok that they don't love us anymore for they are not having kids anymore with their negative population growth so they must not be loving each other that much anymore either.

 

Andy I did not mean to offend with my Moorish ideas , and I am sorry for your loss. I am being real though, I really am concerned that the group in power are far more corrupt than the Clinton group (though I know that the Cinton group had their problems also). Now you are in a position of defending Bush and no one can be very comfortable doing that, I know that you do not believe the conspiracies but there are many nonconspiratorial problems with our current leadership. They really did appoint nonqualified people to many important posts. As for the conspiracies we will have to wait and see if all the info comes out.

 

Oh, I am sometimes thought as a rightest for I expose the left for what they are but I am not even a Republican. I agree with you that the Clinton adminstration was corrupt and I feel there is alot of wrong doings in the Bush white house with no bid contracts and oil money missing in Iraq. However, I really get upset when the left acts as if we brought on 911 ourselves and deserve it or that 911 was a government plot to invade Iraq.

What I do support about Bush is that I feel at least he is trying to do something on the war on Terror. He ignored it like Clinton before 911 but he did have a wake up call afterwards. What I do not like about Bushes efforts were they were done with half measures and the war is run to politically sensitive. But at least he is taking the battle to the terrorists homelands instead of ignoring it like Clinton and letting the FBI and CIA handle it with only a defensive game plan.

Personally, we needed to invade Iraq.
Personally, it didn't make sense to invade Iraq without invading Saudi Arabia and Syria when we had the chance.
Our assests were in place and we were rolling.
Of course we should have blown off that France debate and made a deal with the Russians for troop support and promise China a flow of cheap oil to accept it all.
And in the short term there would be less terrorism inside of Iraq and in the long term we would have a safer world and the people there would slowly have a democratic life style complete with freedom of thought.

As for those conspiracies. Trash them. Our government has stopped the bombing of Wall Street, the blowing up of the Brooklyn Bridge, Lincoln Tunnel and George Washington Bridge, as well as stopped the gassing of the NYC subway system, the bombing of a train station next to the Republican Presidential Convention and these things happened under both the Clinton and Bush Administrations. The Clinton Administration also stopped the bombing of LAX and the Space Needle in Seattle. However, the measures that were used to stop these terrorist acts are or were under attack by the ACLU and some of them were then not used to stop the evil success of 911.
If you don't believe me, look it up. or read the 911 report.

Plus ask yourself, why would a Republican President keep Democratic appointments to the CIA and FBI unless it was to continue the success of stopping terrorism in this nation. But like I said, the ACLU and the political correctness measures that they push hampered our efforts in 911. That was why the Patriot Act was passed by both political parties to bring back some of those old measures under a new law.

 

"Personally, we needed to invade Iraq.
Personally, it didn't make sense to invade Iraq without invading Saudi Arabia and Syria when we had the chance.
Our assests were in place and we were rolling.
Of course we should have blown off that France debate and made a deal with the Russians for troop support and promise China a flow of cheap oil to accept it all.
And in the short term there would be less terrorism inside of Iraq and in the long term we would have a safer world and the people there would slowly have a democratic life style complete with freedom of thought."



realpolitik is fraught with dangers (as we are finding out in Iraq).

 

I repeatedly say "the Bush administration", but you can't seem to understand that I don't hate Bush as much as I hate the people he appointed. Bush is sort of just a bumbling idiot.

Many incoming presidents keep the people from former administrations in high positions for a while. It's not uncommon and hardly an olive branch.

What planet do you live on? The gap between the rich and the poor has only widened. Sure more families have two cars in the garage, but that's because they can't afford the gas to drive either of them these days. People have more down time than ever before?? That's just an odd thing to say because people are working harder and making less than even ten years ago. I can't think of anyone that would say our economy is booming with a straight face. The most common words I hear to describe the economy are sluggish, fragile, and limping along.

The European Union already exists. Been to Europe lately my friend? Tell me Americans are loved.

I perfer not to think about them loving anybody.

 

You mean we can't be extremists like conservatives if we want to? Shucks!

 

You know what the difference between a Liberal and a puppy is, don't you?

A puppy stops whining after it grows up!