Maybe you should ask before you speak. I AM a veteran who has seen danger, and lost my hearing for my country. HAVE YOU??? I served my country proudly and will defend it to my dying day. WOULD YOU? If I was physically able to go to Iraq and serve my country again I WOULD!! Yes my friend, I AM a PROUD patriot of this wonderful country and it is obvoius that YOU ARE NOT!! It seems you are always overly eager to attack the veterans when they show their patriotism and defend their homeland. A TRUE veteran will always defend his/her country till the end whenever it comes under attack either physically or verbally. And you my friend are a professional at it!! While you type safely in the the comfort of your home in a free country with that society that thousands of veterans have died and are dying this day to enable you to do! Maybe YOU are the one that needs to talk to a recruiter, it's real easy, they have websites. If I were you I wouldn't go to the recruiting station personally. They'd probably throw you out the door! If John Wayne were alive, he'd come over there and b--ch slap you right across the head!! It is very obvious that you support dictatorships and terrorism and your anger towards this country, it's supporters and its military makes you a very dangerous person. You need to vent, maybe you should go to the nearest airport and spit on a few veterans as they pass by, that would make you happy.
Steve... I want to thank you for serving and protecting this country. I took my sons, ages 9 and 12, to D.C. in 2004 and we went to Arlington to give honor to those that paid the ultimate sacrifice. The changing of the guard is something they will NEVER forget. It had the same impression on them as it had on me when I was their age. I also had them remember 4 everlasting words from the Korean War Memorial, "Freedom is Not Free." So the next time they hear an idiot state, "It's a free country...I can do what I want." They remember what they witnessed as we toured D.C. So again, I salute you, Old Dan and all veterans of past and current wars. Many take your service for granted, and I can assure you, my family and I do not.
I once read that you can pick out the veterans in a crowd when the flag passes by. They are the first to stand up and the last to sit down.
Guess that, if the US administration had simply said, "look, we consider the regime in Baghdad to be a threat, the times when Saddam was useful against Iran are long over, he is a mass murderer (no doubt about that), and we need to get rid of him", the political conflict would have been a different one. But instead, it tried to convince the Security Council to support the invasion - at a time when the Iraqi regime had finally pretty much given up its bad "games" with the weapons inspectors, due to the increasing pressure. Now we know that the inspections would not have unearthed anything that could, from the Security Council's POV, have justified a military attack. Guess that some in the Council felt misused by all this talk about WMD, the mysterious Niger connection which turned out to be another legend, and the like. The decision they were faced with was basically, either you agree with what we want (then we are authorized by the UN) or you don't agree - then we do it anyway. It's not that I have a "recipe" or formula when it comes to dealing with regimes like Saddam's, or North Korea. Military action can be necessary (see WW2) but is not always an appropriate answer (see Vietnam). And I wonder how the Iran issue will develop ... The dilemma is, and that is why I pointed at the present violent effects of the Iraq war, of course one can bomb countries that do or may support terrorism - but by doing so, we may create more problems than we solve, precisely because fighting terrorism is not a "classical" war. Christian
Someone please tell me why it is that so many men who have served in the military services feel that they have a monopoly on patriotism and are despised by the general population? Even though I have encountered it many times over my lifetime, I’ve have never understood that perception. This must be the ultimate persecution complex. I know during the 60’s that some veterans did get spit on by some overly impassioned, misguided anti-war demonstrators. I know that the movies have depicted these types of stereotypes for sensationalism. But the reality is that the vast, vast, vast majority of veterans are welcomed home by their family, friends and the general public with open arms. I couldn’t conceive of hating a person just because they served in the military. What I do hate, and think this is often confused, is the administrations that send our countries children to wars that we have no business being involved in. Somehow, if you disagree with the reasons that we go to war, you are not supporting the troops and you are not being patriotic. I’m sorry, I’m not dumb enough to buy that argument and I feel sorry for those that are. I think that Bush and his hawks have put our men and women in a terrible situation in Iraq and I would like to see them come home as soon as possible. I don’t hate them for being there, they are doing what they have to do and all too often dying or being disabled as a result. My heart goes out to them all. Blind patriotism is as un-American as Benedict Arnold. Our Founding Fathers gave us freedom of speech so that we could voice our objections to injustices and corrupt politicians not so we could follow them over the cliff like so many lemmings. There is an infinite number of ways to serve your country. The military is one way but let us not forget the contributions that are just as important by our firemen, police, teachers, lawyers, community leaders, and those that don’t blindly accept what they are told. I ask you; Who really does have the monopoly on patriotism?
1.) There is no greater patriotic deed than one that lays down their life, or risks life and limb for their country. Please explain something more honorable or deserving as the ultimate patriot. 2.) I sleep better at nights knowing that our fighting men and woman are 15 minutes away from the enemy versus 15 hours. You take the fight to them. You don't wait till they attack again. Even in the darkest hours after Pearl Harbor, we made plans to attack Japan as soon as possible. We didn't sit idle with the mindset, "Please don't do that again...pretty please." 3.) The argument has been made that we are just making them want to attack us more. In other words, we are making them "more mad". More mad than the first attack of the WTC?...the second (and successful) attack? What about the last 40 years of attack after attack? I don't know how you can get "more mad" than events that took place well before we put our troops in Afghanistan and Iraq. 4.) If you think that Sadam wasn't promoting and exporting terrorism. You are sadly misguided by the "Move On" idiots that basically should be kicked out of this country. They are traitors in the true sense of the word. Read the 9/11 commission report and there is fact after fact of Sadam's ties to terrorism. Of course, if we didn't attack Iraq and were attacked by factions loyal to terrorism and Sadam, the same crowd would be asking why didn't the President uphold his duty and protect the United States? Damned if you do and damned if you don't. Fortunately, we attacked (action) instead of "please don't do that" Neville Chamberlain diplomacy (words). So protest all you want. It is your 1st Amendment right. Legal Americans are entitled to "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness". It doesn't mean they should be provided. It also means you have a right to be stupid. After all, the world would be boring if you only had us smart people around.
Moen, There you go, insulting veterans AGAIN!! So far the only person that has made such a statement is YOU! My God, what a statement. If the administrations throughout history had undertaken this policy where would we be today? I guarantee you that you wouldn't be sitting there a free man able to say whatever you want on your personal computer. The Freedom that you enjoy so much is NOT GIVEN AWAY for free but is won by the blood, sweat and tears of hero's here and around the world yesterday, today and tomorrow. And how did they get them for you?? Would you have that freedom and so many others if that administration had not went to war to get them for you???? Good thing they didn't agree with your above policy. "BLIND PATRIOTISM"?? Can you explain further? If you are referring to me and others who love the U.S. so much that they will do whatever it takes to protect this country and our freedom by any means. If this is blind patriotism then Hell yes, I'm blind as a bat!! I just want to be there when you call one of them a traitor (Benedict Arnold) to their face and not from behind a computer monitor. Noone likes war. However, they are at times unavoidable. The lifestyles and freedoms that we cherish are what makes this country so great and why we are resented and targeted by so many. Throughout history and into the future, countries have and always will hate the United States and like it or not, a time will always come when we will have to fight to keep our freedom and everything we stand for. Anyone can say they are a patriot but a true patriot proves it every day!! Signed: Your patriotic friend who wasn't asked to do his part, but volunteered and DID it without question or complaint.
You have repeatedly insinuated that I should b--ch slapped by movie actors (by the way I've met John Wayne and he isn't what you think he is) and that you'd like to see me assaulted by an angry veteran for my views. I bet you were a great soldier because your solution to anyone that isn't in line with you views needs a good a-- kicking. I'd like to know how you reconcile the idea that you fought for my freedom of speech while wishing that someone would assault me for exercising it??? Signed, Your somewhat confused benefactor.
Alas this aged warrior must give way the highly super-educated scholar who in his ultimate wisdom has figured out how to bring ultimate and lasting peace to the world without firing a shot. Dissolve your armies, navies and air forces and destroy the weapons that bring nothing but death they are no longer needed. Throw away your history books and their lies. Tear down the memorials to great Americans who evidently knew not how to achieve us our freedom. Plow under Arlington cemetery which is nothing more than a tribute to "blind patriots" who died for nothing, etc. Eliminate any patriotic holiday, they are just memorials to angry veterans or un-necessary dark times in history etc. etc.. Terrorists and Dictators are our friends and will never harm us again, OPEN UP OUR BOUNDARIES to them, we don't want to make them mad. This is the wonderful world according to Moen! A world where our freedom is handed out for free and nobody can ever take them away so a Government that supports a military is not needed. I sure will sleep better now knowing that we can now depend on people like Moen to solve all the world's troubles and provide a better America where not a single person will ever have to defend this country or what it stands for again. Terrorists are going to love your Administration!! All this from the comfort of his cozy computer room. I remember saying it once. You are the one that repeated it. There you go putting words into my mouth again. Your statement, not mine! Besides I was an airman and not a soldier. Of course you wouldn't know the difference they're all baby killers to you. I guess every time a soldier, sailor, airman, etc. goes off the defend this country they are just doing it because there is nothing else to do. I guess no matter what the outcome, your pleasant lifestyle will never change. I guess your freedoms weren't earned but were just given and nobody can ever take them away from you. Every time a soldier puts on that uniform and steps into harms way they are protecting and defending all your Freedoms and everything else you take for granted. Every member of the armed forces takes an oath to do just that! Don't you mean a group of "Patriots"? What I do know is that the British didn't just sign a treaty, get in their boats and sail away. If memory serves me, I think that those patriotic Americans had to fight and die to win our independence. Freedom isn't free! Simple history Moen, you should know that! Of course you probably believe it was another un-necessary war and Britain would have given it to us if we just asked nicely. MAYBE YOU SHOULD LISTEN TO YOUR OWN ADVICE! Have you ever been in the military? Have you walked in their shoes? Have you faced someone who had trained to kill you and who's only objective was to kill you? I don't think so otherwise you would show more respect and understand why I feel the way I do about veterans that have. Last weekend I attended a festival in Michigan. When a group of Iraq war veterans passed the crowd instantly jumped to their feet followed by enormous cheers, applauding and hand shakes. If you have ever been there you know how many people we are talking about. Even the high school band following them stopped playing and applauded. I can say it was a very moving experience. This was repeated every time the flag or any veterans would pass for the entire 2 hrs of the parade. It is nice to see that everyone doesn't share Moen's opinion and that most Americans DO understand what our soldiers are fighting for and support them fully. We do not have a monopoly on freedom. Every human being has a right to be free. If we have to fight a ruthless dictatorship so that the people of that country can also enjoy freedom as we do, then so be it!! Remember that countries came to our aid to help us achieve our independence. So now I leave you and your perfect little world where you know it all and can save the world with your little white flag, two simple words..."STOP THAT" and a short drive to the Canadian border!!! And your motto "What's the big deal? FREEDOM IS FREE". Your country is so proud of you. Goodbye and enjoy your fantasy life.
As a disabled veteran I believe I have the right to reply to this thread. Steve and Moen – Both of you need to calm down . First – The war was needed. If you strip all the political crap away Saddam needed his a** kicked for the things he was doing to humanity. Second – The political game that was played by my commander in chief was appalling. He used the media to confuse the issue and justify the military action. -Bush is doing his best to resolve the current situation. This does not mean someone may or may not have done it differently or better. I certain wouldn’t want the job but I would do it if asked to. I do know that I would probably be no better. -As much as I don’t want to see my friends, relatives, and co-workers pay the ultimate price I am consoled by the fact that they know first hand what the military is doing and they support the action. I am also happy to hear that Iraqi’s are no longer in fear of their lives if they don’t bring home a gold medal. I also sleep better knowing that we are trying to give the citizen of another country the means to enjoy the freedoms we here in America do. -If the U.S. was to pull out now with the job half done we would be criticized, no chastized within the year for leaving the job incomplete. Whether we like it or not we can not pull out and any demands that we do only force our government to try to put on a good face. -When the government is forced to look compassionate they always reduce the military presence to a bare minimum. This results in more dead not less. So to this I say SUPPORT THE TROOPS by not advocating the withdraw of forces. SUPPORT THE TROOPS by giving them the personnel and equipment they need to get the job done. And by done I mean: Establish a self supporting government of Iraqi’s and for Iraqi’s. -Don’t get me wrong, I do not like my president. I feel that he mislead me. I will not vote for Cheney in the next election unless the Democrat is an absolute idiot. I will never become friends with Bush nor will I ever consider him to be a Teddy or Regan. -He has however taken a stand against something that was wrong. He has in his way done what he deemed necessary to achieve a result that has and will continue to help America and humanity. For this, and this alone, he is a great president. -If you want to blame someone for the war blame the American people. They allowed the media to dictate the reaction to 9/11. They elected a president that did not or does not have your interests as his own. Remember the President does the job that the nation asks him to do. Bush has done that job. We asked him to retaliate. It is our fault ,and our responsibility to accept that the reaction may not have been correct. It is our fault because we elected him. In short the administration did the right thing but for the wrong reasons. I can live with that for now but next election I will do my best to change it. And I will be proud of the fact that I am a veteran. I will freely speak my mind. No matter how much I may dislike others opinions, I will listen and try my best to understand their point of view. To do anything else cheapens the sacrifices that others have paid for my freedom.
Well Stevie old buddy, I to will call an end to this never ending back and forth litany of “My uncle is more patriot than your uncle”. You have obviously pigeon-holed me as an anti-military, veteran hating, commie with no greater desire than to see all traces of liberty erased from this earth despite the plethora of prose expressing the opposite. I guess it’s true that old soldiers never die; they just keep looking for the next war to fight. You don’t seem to be able to refute or even address any of the contradictions you have espoused in this thread. You have intentionally half-quoted or myopically focused on my statements to fit your view of the world and pegged “people like me” as the enemy. You’ve chosen to ignore any and all sympathy and support I have expressed for the men and women that serve our county because it doesn’t fit your view of “me and my kind”. You’ve more than insinuated that I’m less of an American because I didn’t enlist as you did. And that I couldn’t possibly understand what it’s like to put my life on the line for my country because of my lack of military service. My lack of military service had nothing to do with an aversion to The Cause but it does have something to do with something you and I have in common. You see, I come from a family of veterans and hunters. I was one of 9 children and the only son that didn’t hunt. My father was a Korean War vet in the Air Force and an avid hunter. So what is it you and I have in common; we both have a disability. I have been legally blind in my right eye since I was born and unfit for military service as a result. I couldn’t hit the broadside barn with a bazooka. I was told by many physicians and eye doctors from an early age that the military would have no interest in me. I tried shooting with my left eye and my right arm across my chest while growing up but being right handed I was never able to hit anything. I serve my country in other way that I deem at least as important as the way you served-note the two phases “I serve” and “you served”. I currently serve as a scout leader and assistant pack leader for the local scout organization. I volunteer my time to help with community projects that make this community a better place to live. I have repeatedly help my friends and neighbors in their times of need by watch there kids, pets, and homes during family emergencies. They count on me and I have always been there for them and glad to do it. How long ago was it you were in the service anyway? What have you done lately to make this country a better place to live? As I said before, there are many ways to serve your country and going to parades and wrapping yourself in the flag might bolster your ego a bit but I suggest that you stop leaning on your crutches and get out there and stop fight the last non-war years of your enlistment. I know veterans that make a big distinction between those that served during times of war and those that didn’t; those that serve in the reserves and those that served regular 4-6 year hitches. I personally wouldn’t draw that distinction because I believe that there are many way to serve your country. Now let’s end this thread peacefully and agree to disagree. I have my opinions and you have yours. I still collect coins and while this thread was raging I managed to pick up two beautiful 1996-W Roosevelt’s. What have you managed to add to your collection during this time? Hum?
Thank you Morgan! You are exactly the kind of veteran I am most proud of. I am grateful to you and vets like you and I appreciate all of your sacrifices. Thank you! I agree with almost everything you wrote and arguing the differences would just be splitting hairs. I sometimes like these little diversions from just discussing coins and I'm glad that the powers that be provided this general topic forum to do so. Thanks for your refreshing input. Now the downside-you have to find all of the following posts in your email. Ouch!
Daniel, you must be tired today. You usually have more to add than four words and two cute characters. Maybe you're exhausted from reading so many of our long posts.
Even though I believe my opinions on the subject are just and correct, I want to thank all for a spirited discussion. In the meantime, me and my boys will continue to say our prayers at night asking that our troops be safe as they protect us Through this thread, I did manage to pick up a MS66 NGC 1949-P Lincoln...so I did manage to add to my collection. Time for a cold beer and talk about the upcoming NFL season. Go Buffalo...break my heart again, but I still have to Bill-leave! Please don't say, "Wide right" to me...it still breaks my heart as Buckner did to Red Sox's fans back in 1986.
Please do not end a good debate with more blind insults. That is not a peaceful ending. For the 2nd time, let's let it end!! Let us shake hands and remain friends, 2 Americans with different opinions, but still friends. What a good spirited debate it was, I must admit. And I received my sets of Ocean in View nickels yesterday, so there. God bless America and God bless America's veterans! What about them Bears???
They were not intended to be insults. Sorry you took them that way. I was merely pointing out that even amoung vets there are distictions drawn between who contributed the most and who is more patriotic. Like said, those are not my distictions. Any photos of those nickels we can see?
Nice coin find. I have to be nice to the Bear fans in my area due to the second consecutive season with the starting quarterback sidelined for the season. I am a Vikings fan and I am absolutely sure that they are going all the way this year. Yeah Right!
Here ya go. Not much to see though. I break out one set to display in the mint wrappers the rest I leave in the un-opened original boxes
