Wealth Redistribution Still Moving Upward

First of all, Lehigh is not a state University and the tuition is comparable to that of an ivy league school. Second, I never said they were dumb. I stated that they were born privileged and acted like it by not working very hard. Had they shown any work ethic at all they certainly would have been able to achieve a better education at a better school, usually ivy league.

As far as an obligation to improve the conditions of the less fortunate, where do you draw that line. There are human beings in this world who face death on a daily basis. The are countries all over the world where many children only dream of living to see another day, yet we have an obligation to improve the conditions of the people here in the United States. The best way to help them is not to support them.

In my life, I have managed well over 1,000 different employees. If you asked me to rank the top 100 in terms of work ethic, I doubt I could include an American name in the list. Every employee I have ever had from Europe was a harder worker than any American. However, the American way of entitlement is contagious. I have seen several of these Europeans stay in the United States after marrying an American. After just a few short years, they become just as lazy as the members of our general populous.

As for Carl Jung, your synopsis seems rather inaccurate. This was in the first page of the article.

That sounds a lot like what I have been saying. Everyone needs to stop making excuses, take responsibility, and display a never ending determination that will almost certainly result in success.

You say privilege is omnipresent. I say excuses are omnipresent. Hard work and determination can overcome the head start that privilege affords. The rhetoric that accompanies the evil of privilege is nothing more than the mating call of the losers of our society. You can disagree all you want. The winners are too busy fighting to stop and place blame on anything.

 

Certainly no lazier a way than the American way of big and easy profit. Why work? The big dogs certainly do not, unless you would call gambling with other people's futures working. I certainly do not. The lower class of people are supposed to work for menial wages while the wealthy Wall street gamblers and their corporately sponsored associates simply remove the wealth from society? I can see why people don't want to work very hard for what they are paid while greed and corporate crime run rampant. Yes sir! There is no lazier example than the American system of use, abuse while removing the wealth and dignity of it's own citizens in the name of profit, then have the same people b**** that the less privileged are too lazy to "make it". Only in America!

 

Then it basically comes down to the individual versus goverment controll/subsidized at the expense of the individual which are those people that work harder, study longer, and make smart decisions.

I read the other day in USA Today about two guys who "bet" their 401-K on a business and MADE IT! They took the risk, they busted their butts, and now they have...here's that bad word...PROFITED!

I applaud those that take the risks and with that, they should enjoy the fruits of their labor. They didn't ask for anything from the government except to get out of their way.

Now...we have a whole generation of Americans whose parents wear "holding hands and feeling good" during the 60's DEMDANDING that those that these employers take care of ALL of their needs.

80% of Americans are employed by small businesses, but let's target the largest employers because it is easy to do and let's run with that "class envy" and "racism" argument...again...because it is the only thing that will fire up the liberal base, and it is the only thing they can understand.

 

Leigh: sory I didn't realize that was your colledge. I still don't think it is generazliable, but I did not mean any disrespect. I got your point. I should of charectorized it a little differnt. BTW have you meet with/ talked to any of these people latley. A lot of people are terrible colledge studetns, but go on to do great things.


Carl Jung: Yes taking personal responsibilty is of the utmost importance. He is argueing though that we take responsibility for our own unconcuse and our own shadows. That does not mean blindly work hard. I should of explained it better. I take for granted that most people do not have lots of experiance with critical Theory. My interpreation has always been that one is taking responsibility for there own shadow and become self critical of moral stands. An easy example would be closeted congress people that rail against homosexuality. The law becomes an extention of their own lack. So by not embraceing their true sexuality they cause mass suffering inthe world.

Quote from the next section of the article----

We will not be able to stand this other person or be around them at all. The reaction is usually extreme distaste as these characteristics or qualities that we despise or hate in others are our own and they are usually operating outside of our awareness. They are in our unconscious and usually they will be the exact opposite of what we believe to be true about ourselves.

-----

On Contradictions: Just because Carl Jung things we should be radicaly self aware does not deney the negative aspects of how people form decisions about people we find to be degenerate. Also yes one could argue that Me and Ross both have a sense of guilt with our privladge, but the key like Jung said is to understand your shadow and embrace it and work form their. Not blindly deney it.


As for this thread the shadow would imply that yes we the "hardworking coin freaks" (term of love) are good because of our hard work. While the oposite the lack is obv the disadvatage, and people dealing with the knowledge of the suffering of the other. Also from that quote when he talks about bad luck and personal decisions that is distinctly differnt then growing up in a poor area that acan not afforde to educate you/ feed you/ provide basick saftey. All of the things that need to be improved in america, and all the things one needs to advance in society. How do we expect kids to learn calculus if they can not even feel safe in the classroom.


Who do we save? Well yes most people live on a dollar a day and most people are starving. I have made the argument many times that if you have a place to sleep. regular food and some money for entiertainment (even if it is just gas money to a park and a little for basick cable) that you are rich beyond all compare. I would say that our first responsibility to them is to understand our role in their poverty. One major one is the subsidization of Agriculture. Also similar to welfare in america many countrys are addictied to foregin aid. Because why fix yourself when others will fix it for you. We could stop charging intrest on "aid Loans' or hell stop lending aid. Their are lots of things we could do to help out the least fortunite in this world. Just because our obligation is hard does not mean we do not have an obligation. Also many parts of america are as bad off as any 3rd world country. If you ever take me up on my invite down south I'll show you parts of "alabamas black belt" that are horrible. Literaly test third world in lack of literacy/ infinte mortality/ and any other catagorie you can think of.


Work Ethic/ Excuses: Come on yall think about it. It is not an excuse to say that people who live in inner cities have $hity schools and thus need more help. The research is indisputible that the amount of money spent on your education Directly effects the outcome. Especialy when it comes to young children.


No American workers: This is an area that I agree with you on. I don't manage my clients, but I have worked with Small Busniess all over america. I also work with several ladies that where from India and now have green cards.They work very very hard. Most people are lazy and do feel entitled, but i've been saying all along that we need to change the way we help people. So they will no longer feel entiled but know that they have to work to recive social benifites. We need more national service programs in america with real rewards for helping society.


Midas: Great for them. No one is saying making money is bad. I've argued that we need to understad our privladge and use it to help others. I've also said we need to lower taxes on small busniess, and tax in gernal for that matter. Will get more $ with less tax because of the increase in overall revenue and GDP growth.



Ross theory, and others make it prety simple. We justifey screwing over poor people because we think they are moraly inferior. Still challanging people anyone to defend this myth, or show that it is not true.

 

It has been proven time and time again that lower taxes have INCREASED revenue coming into the federal government and that increasing taxes actually saw LESS dollars coming into the federal coffers. Look what happen when Hoover was President as the Great Depression was unfolding. He was convinced to raise taxes and he did...and that drove the country deeper into the Depression as less tax dollars were in fact collected. However, when JFK, Reagan and Bush II cut marginal tax rates, revenue then INCREASED! The facts are clear.

However...this a tactic by the left with class warfare and you will NEVER see the left call for a reduction in marginal tax rates because that is how they cater to their base by attacking those that succeed and "profit".

Our tax rates are already high enough and we have one of the worst punishing tax policies found in the industrized world. The problem is that the left doesn't think so and pushes their "class envy" policies and when that doesn't work, they use the "R" word to hurt businesses and corporations.

 

How many big dogs do you know personally? How do you know they don't work hard. If every company was run like Enron, they would suffer the same fate. The fact is that most large corporations are run by hard working people at the top. You don't hear about them, because being responsible and doing your job are not newsworthy. You hear only the bad things that the media reports and then you extrapolate that behavior to encompass the way normal business is conducted in this country. It is just another convenient way to make an excuse for yourself to quit.

Is their corruption in corporate American and in the government? Of course there is! Are you going to affect change by sitting on your butt and asking for a handout? (Rhetorical question) Quite simply, if you allow the conduct of others to dictate your own actions instead of basing your actions on a set or core beliefs and ethics that include hard work and determination then you are destined for failure.

BTW, since you like cornchips, maybe you can tell us your opinion on the CEO and upper management of Frito Lay!

 

I don't think anyone will dispute that their is an advantage to being born wealthy. I have not done so at any point in this thread. My point is that you can't and indeed shouldn't do anything to change that. There are always going to be people of different financial backgrounds. Not everyone can be rich, it is not possible. It is the responsibility of the underprivileged to work that much harder to succeed. It might not be "fair", but there it is.

Once everyone understands that there is no handout, then they will be forced to work for what they want. Some have to start on their own 2 yard line while others get to start at midfield. It might not be "fair", but there it is.

 

Who here has ever claimed poor people were morally inferior? I think you are arguing points that aren't being contended.
All I'm saying is that humble beginnings are not an excuse. I felt like I needed to work harder, considering the circumstances I was raised in, than some of my peers & I did. It paid off for me & has paid off for many others. Stop using poverty as a crutch & stop allowing others to use it as an excuse.
While we're at it...do you realize that every quote you paste here is virtually opposite from what you post yourself? Has anyone else noticed that? You state how hard work has paid off for you, how you have succeeded through your own efforts yet the quotes you post are the polar opposites. Kinda odd.

 

How many? I've had accquaintances with several actually, and I guess what one would call "work" would come into perspective. From mine, I'd say all are takers. They do business by the phone in an impressive office environment for at least an hour per day, looking for things, people to chop, deals and people's throats to cut, a few hundred thousand here, a million there. I seriously doubt you can convince anyone that those that are on top are working hard at anything except cutting someone's livelihood in exchange for padding their own pockets. There are as many Enrons as there are as many leeches posing as businessmen on top, slicing up the country one deal at a time. Quite numerous, unfortunately.
I believe that you said that "not everyone can be rich" did you not? So then should the rest of civilization be the guinea pigs, servents, the lesser of their successful counterparts, or should everyone enjoy a more level playing field, enabling the majority of society to be engaged in the generated wealth, rather than the select few? Should they all simply serve their successful masters because they were "too lazy" to become successful? Should they all just have to cater to those more fortunate snakes in the pit? Because that is what our society represents today. A snakepit.The select few dictating the rules, needs and requirements of the masses. That may be all well and good from where you sit, but unfortunately, that short sightedness is primarily responsible for the very volatile environment that most of this country's citizens find themselves neck deep in today.
The wealthy, priveleged, successful (pick your word) are by default the most manipulative members of our so called civilized society. Most of us are just along for the ride and are nothing less than pawns, impedances to their greater wealth, in this sick game of chess we all call civilization.
Work and determination are undermined by greed and corruption, and until that playing field is leveled, society as a whole, will fail to survive (and this happening much sooner, rather than later). Enjoy your skewed view of reality while you can, and don't break your arm patting yourself on the back.

 

In life there are winners and losers. I have never heard a winner talk like that. Keep complaining, I am sure it will change you pitiful lot in life.

BTW, care to name your acquaintances and how you knew them, because I believe the closest you came to knowing any of them was taking the trash out of their office. You are a pawn in life because you choose not to make the sacrifice involved in being more than that. Your cowardice affords you the opportunity to blame others, more specifically, people you don't even know for your own failure in our capitalist society. Like I said, there are winners and there are losers. The winners don't complain because they don't stop fighting, ever! Guess what that makes you!

 

David: Every Quote I have posted contradicts. Really Can you read? Yes I work hard or I would starve. Yes I work a sales job that pays commisions because I don't want to work normal hours or really for "anyone". Also I like cold calling it is kinda fun. Tricking secritaries becaomes a game, and Sales people are the very very very last to get fired. That being said. I think time and time again I have pointed out that while I am privledged and I do work hard. That does not mean that their is not a problem in Amercia/ The world We have a responsibillity to understand our privlege and help out "The Other". Please point out a condradiction other than the percived carl jung one which I think is taken out of context


As far as the "answering points that have not been made" or "I never said that" it is implicite in the logic of your side of this discoutin. The rhetoric of poverty is very provasive in our society. While this thread may be a very small and posibly beniane version of it. If you read ross article it might change your mind on the idea. I am sure a librarien and a local colledge or city library could easliy find it for you. It really is worth the 1/2 hour it might take to read/skim threw it. I read it for the first time in 10th grade and it drastickly changed the way I looked at the world.



Legih:

"indeed shouldn't do anything to change that" Why man. That is such a Nihlistic way of looking at the world. Im not arguing give back the wealth Huie Long style just that we should make inner city schools safe and staff them with good teachers, Or hook up working mothers bouth maried and unmaried (a hudge disticition between the statues quoe) with free child care so they can A) save money and invest or spend it thus helping the economy and B) Making the kids lifes better give them some crackers juice and a bunch of board games/ crayons and let them go to town. It might also help some kids that need to borrow the money for school pay it back and not get a degree with 50K in debate (student loans sux to pay back. I just refinanced mine and the bill makes me want to jump off a bridge J/K)

Or you know stop subsidizing ethonal so the price of corn will drop and their will not be food wriotes again.

Or my favoret idea. Anyone with a job qualifies for 600 dollars a month in food aid. It wouldn't matter if you where donald trump or a man working the midnight shift at the quicke mart. Work a job get some free food.

These seem so simple to me

Is wealth bad? NO abuslity not. Is it something wrong with making money? NO.

What is bad is sitting back and saying well someone has to win for others to lose. It is a craying shame that in the Best Country in the world people live in constant fear and diare poverty only witnessed in the worst of 3rd world countries

 

Every decision you make in life has consequences. If someone can't afford to have children, then they should not have had children. Don't have the child anyway and then expect that my tax dollars be used to pay the childcare bill.

I paid my student loans back over 10 years. Over $600/month for 10 years. I drove a Toyota Tercel with manual steering and no AC until I was 31 years old because I couldn't afford to get a better car. I knew the consequences of taking on those loans and was willing to make a sacrifice. But don't ask me to foot the bill for someone else because they don't want to make the same sacrifice.

Capitalism ensures that there are going to be winners and losers. The entire system is predicated on competition. Unfortunately that means that many businesses will fail over time and many people will lose their jobs. When they do, they have a responsibility to go find another job to meet their financial obligations. Crying about it and making excuses won't take care of your family, but hard work and determination will.

The citizens of this country have gotten soft. The aura of entitlement is pervasive everywhere you go. Lets put it this way. People always complain about the conditions of our inner city schools. What have the parents of the children who attend these schools done to make it better? The answer 99% of the time is "Nothing". In fact, many of them are the cause of their own problems. The decision to use drugs is a direct cause of the horrible conditions found in our inner cities. The parents who use drugs perpetuate the hostile environment for their own children and lead their children down the path of substance abuse themselves. How many parents volunteer their free time at the school to make it a better safer place for their children? How many parents are actively involved in monitoring what their children are learning in school? You can blame a lack of financial resources all you like, I blame a lack of caring and initiative on the part of the parents.

I was lucky to have a father that cared and taught me important lessons about life at a young age. Every report card I got paid based on my performance: A: $20, B:$5, C:$2, D: $0, F: No money paid no matter what the other grades on the card were. If I got straight A's my father paid me about $500/year. A sound investment for your child's education, wouldn't you say?

I advocate personal responsibility first and foremost. You can't do that if you are going to provide a safety net. Without detrimental consequences to poor decisions, there is no incentive to make good decisions.

 

Our obligation is to show others how to work hard & achieve what we want to achieve in life, not to provide a litany of excuses as to why one can't make it.
You made a statement that if you didn't work hard you would starve, right? Then what would you think is a perfect defense against such starvation? Hard work, maybe? It doesn't matter what condition one is born into, a work ethic comes from within.
You seem hung up on something you read in the 10th grade yet your life experience seems to contradict (yes, contradict) it...I just don't get where you are coming from. Which is it? Hard work or privilege? I believe hard work is the great equalizer when compared to privilege.

 

Well said.

Cornchips & Blueindian, If you're whining about the playing field not being level you had better be willing to grab yourself a rake & shovel and go to leveling- it's your responsibility to make your own way in life. You own your future & it will be exactly what you choose to make of it. Blame others if it makes you feel better but if you are honest with yourself you will plainly see where the choices you have made have gotten you where you are, good or bad.

 

Bravo David!

 

Welcome to the CoinTalk Mutual Admiration Society. It's like a reverse MENSA Society group.

 

....and moen is the founder....

 

A personal attack instead of continuing the debate about the issue at hand. How refreshing!

 

Great story I have to share on this subject of "paying" for performance as I did the same with both of my boys with school and sports.

During a T-Ball game, I encouraged my 5 year old son by paying him a $1 for each out during a tee-ball game. [Now...Keep in mind that half of the kids were not even into the "game" as you see often at T-ball games. You know...they are looking up at birds as most young kids are easily distracted]

I defined for my son that an "out" was tagging the runner, throwing a runner out at base (and the kid had to catch it) or catching a pop-up. If he did that, he got a dollar.

Well...that set my 5 year off at his short-stop position...he was chasing down every ball that was within 100 feet of him and he started rackng up the dollars.

On one play, the ball was hit squarely at him at short stop and he turned to the kid on 2nd base making his way to 3rd. My son accidentially tagged the kid in the face (as the batter ducked) and the kid went down holding his face crying like anything.

Without missing a beat, my son held the ball up and looked for me in the stands and yelled over, "That's a dollar, right Dad?" whereby all of the parents immediatlely looked at me like I was this psycho (I know...you probably agree with them).

Of course I explained to the parents my $1 incentive program per out and at least most of the fathers got it.

It cost me $7 that day and we still laugh about the "tag" at short.

Meanwhile, that same son has never asked for money. He has earned it. Whether he cuts the neighbor's yards or goes diving for golf balls that he sells for 50 cents each...at least he understands the value of hard work!

 

David: its not zero sum. Just because I have to work and take care of myself does not contradict the fact that I think we have a moral obligation to help poor people.


Come one fellas you have to bring a little better evedince then sotries of getting paid for grades and little league sports. I had a very simmilar child hood. I got my frist witman folder for making all A's in the 1st grade. Try being dyslexic and learning to read. My parents forced me to take spelling test even though the doctors said it was pointless because they didn't want me to get used to taking handouts. I also took the ACT with no extra time and made a 31 in reading. Probobly 100% because of the fact that they forced me to work and did not care what the teachers thought Go me!

So yes I am a 100% product of the life style you all describe.

The thing is I don't think priveledge is bad. I just think it means that if you are privledged then you have a responsibiity to give back to the world.


BTW once you pay taxes its no longer your money. So arguemtns like "I don't want my tax dollars spent on those lazy bumms" are silly


As far as wasting money goes I think there are thousands of pork projects that are bigger waste of money then food aid and free child care.


On Parents: We know there partnets sux. Its not the kids fault they lost the cosmic lotery. The more we help the less people will have crapy lives and will help stop the cycle. Also end the policys that cause a lot of these problems.


Step your game up fellas.

Do you all support rebuilding cities after natuaral disasters?