What Will be Left When There is NO Middle Class?

Craig, Haven't you learned by now? You are not allowed to hold an opinion contrary to that of Dr moen. I thought you would have learned that by now.

 

A lot of the reason that people in this country think they are middle class, when they are much higher, is probably because a lot of things that we have, we do not consider disposable income...we just think of them as necessary bills. When, in reality, they are entertainment, convenience, disposable income, etc.

But, most people's bills or possessions are really disposable income. Cable, movie channels, pets, internet, cell phones, computers, big screen TVs, more expensive than average home, more expensive than average car, multiple cars, eating out for many meals, having a pool, a boat, coins, etc. We tend to take a lot of things for granted and look at a lot of things as normal or necessary that really aren't either to a lot of people.

That is also why one has to take a statistic like

• 61 percent of Americans "always or usually" live paycheck to paycheck,

with a grain of salt.

Someone can make a lot of money and still live paycheck to paycheck because they have a lot of disposable income bills or possessions. Heck, I am sure people do it at $1M a year or more. I suspect that is why one hears about sports figures being broke after the career ends.

If someone asked me, I would say I mostly live paycheck to paycheck too. What I would not be saying is that I treat the 401k, savings, etc as bills I have to pay each month and not really as the disposable income it is.

 

I don't care if you think I am rich. We have already had this discussion over on Cointalk. The simple fact is that I do not have the same responsibilities that many other people who have families have. I am not married and have no children. As a result, I don't have the financial burden that accompanies the decision to reproduce. I have disposable income that I use to fund my coin collection. Until this year, I used my poker winnings to fund my coin collection. I make less than $70K/year and my net worth is less than $300K. I am not rich, I am middle class, I just have different priorities and responsibilities than people like you.

All you have are personal attacks based on the fact that I work in an industry that you find offensive. Yet you absolutely refuse to tell us what you do for a living. Then you go on to attack my girlfriend. Why shouldn't she collect unemployment, she paid into it? She worked 60 hours a week (two jobs) in order to make that 80K/year. How many hours a week do you work? How dare you call anybody else lazy! She recently quit her part time job and found a full time job in a new Casino in Philadelphia. She now works 40 hours/week but spends over 2 hours/day commuting. Still think she is lazy? Are you really blaming socialism on my girlfriend. You are the poster child for socialism. Do I have to remind you that you are the one who coined the phrase "government is the only way to fix anything."

Now lets look at my ex-wife for a moment. She is a 15 year employee of the FAA. She has no college education and her job duties are that of an human resources staffer. She is not a manager, has never been promoted, yet she makes more money per year than I do. This is a job that in the private sector would be paid between 25-30K per year. Now that is what I find offensive. Government employees who are held to no standard of work collecting huge salaries to perform basically unskilled labor at the expense of the taxpayers.

But what is really offensive is you and everything you stand for. You are a treasonous coward with no ambition and an inner hatred of just about every principle this country was founded upon.

Now that you know my financials, would you classify me as middle class or upper class?

 

How many tax shelters do you partake in? You admit to 70K, so we can at least double that. I'd say at or near a hundred grand for 1 person constitutes rich, hardly middle class. Oh...before I forget. I find you really offensive and your defense of your narrow minded attitude repulsive as well. (that was productive).
I tried to point out the lunacy of the right's equally narrow visioned mental disorder by spewing some of the same nonsense they preach. Of course your girlfriend deserves her unemployment. I was mocking the right. Apparently you missed it. So does every other person that receives some form of government assistance, so long as this corporate society operates in the fashion of exploitation that they currently do. Until corporate entities of today's society are knocked down a few pegs and it becomes a more level playing field for all....we're all stuck with dysfunctional greed and corrupt CEO's, and worst of all, the republican party.
PS. The hatred you reference isn't apparent at all in you. I'd have figured you were just a troubled priest.

Oh and you really need to drop the "I hate my country" attempts at whatever it is that you're attempting. I hate the occupants and the criminals (that mostly) reside in the republican party, their agenda, and for what they've turned this country into, not the country that once existed not too long ago, before the profiteers took it over. But, by all means...if it helps you feel better about yourself, I guess continue. Maybe it'll eventually help alleviate the .20 state of guilt you feel daily.

 

When I was about 12 I asked my father if we were middle class. He laughed and said it was none of my business. We he died 5 years later, I found out I'd never have to worry about that kind of crap. But I'd rather have been poor then to lose both my parents then. Some guys in here go too far with their contempt for the wealthy and their disgust for the poor.

 

While I cannot quote a study or provide a link, I read somewhere that Americas " poverty " level is based on Americas expectations.

Many of the " impoverished " have a car, cable TV, cell phones, eat happy meals at least weekly, etc etc.....we, the spoiled nation..............Look at you Tom, you claim poverty and sub human wages at Walmart, yet you have a computer and the internet......

TomC, you want to see greed and corruption? Get out your excellent investigative tools and look into global warming and the cap and trade tax.......please share your results.

 

Hey I dont want to keep going on this, because you arent sincere. You made the first post in this thread and claimed that the middle class is disappearing. Not some not a few not many. You said THE middle class. So dont try to push this back on me. And if it is so irrelevant; why bring up all those percentages? Youre just as bad as some others in here. You cannot admit to a mistake or error. I make mistakes all the time. I'm making one now by trying to honestly figure what the f&#k youre trying to say.

 

That is my gross salary bonehead, before taxes. And 70 is not near 100. I will not drop the "I hate my country" references regarding your behavior until you change. IMO, you are an accomplice to the terrorists who attacked this country on 9/11. Furthermore, you seem to have this nostalgic feeling about the economics of the United States before your time. We have covered this before, but the corruption, exploitation, and profiteering back in the late 1800's and early 1900's was much worse than it is now. Where do you think anti-trust laws and labor unions came from?

 

My guess is that one of your earlier mistakes was never learning reading comprehension. Your real problem is trying to play gotcha rather than trying to communicate. Maybe you have a need to show the rest of us how smart you are or just that you feel that you have something to prove. If you come up with a legitimate point, I'd be happy to discuss it. I just have no idea what difference it makes if I stated that the middle class IS disappearing or if the middle class WILL disappear. In the end, isn't it all really the same thing? None of this makes any of my points any less valid. If your goal was to completely miss the point, nice job!

 

That's a very good point. We have unions to thank for the 5-day work week, child labor laws, and pretty much every other right workers have in the workplace. Conditions in the workplace were so bad in the early part of the 20th century, workers were dying and abused with the help of the local police that enforced the company policies. You may or may not like unions but you owe your decent working conditions to them. I don’t think that we should go back to those days but unions are in decline. Who knows?

 

The difference now is that most states have laws that guarantee non union workers the same benefits that the labor unions provided their members in the early 20th century. Labor laws have really eliminated the need for labor unions and they have become a leech on the American workforce. They are now the exploiters. They will defend the worst employees to the bitter end in order to maintain membership dues.

In 1998, I worked at a plant in New Jersey that manufactured aluminum master alloys. The workers were all UAW union represented. The divide created by the union between the workers and management was staggering. The corporation that owned the plant also owned a facility in Brazil. Needless to say, productivity, quality, safety, and volume of production were all far better at the plant in Brazil. I knew that it was only a matter of time before the plant would close. I tried to explain this prediction to the union workers for almost a year before I gave up and quit and returned to the casino industry. The response I got from the union plant employees was identical to the crap that TomC spews everyday. The major components of the plant closed in 2003 and they all lost their jobs.

US manufacturing employees don't understand or care that there are people around the globe willing to do their work at a fraction of the cost. They are only concerned with what they feel they are entitled to. They don't work hard, they don't care about quality or safety, and the don't take any pride in making their company successful. Now I know these statements are generalizations and my opinion, but I have personal stories that I can provide as examples if necessary. For an example that we all know about, perhaps the auto workers who were already bailed out, should stop drinking beer and smoking pot on their breaks.

Corporate globalization has been a serious concern to the United States and the middle class for decades but IMO, it is only taken seriously by the middle class manufacturing workers when it is too late. In other words, they only care about it after it has cost them their jobs. You can thank unions for the working conditions. You can also thank them for shipping your jobs overseas.

 

You are full of it. To you it makes no difference. And here again you claim that in the end there will be no middle class. Yet in other posts you say that some of the upper class will descend into middle class. Now you can deny that you wrote these things are that I am reading them incorrectly, but that isnt the case. You say you see signs of the middle class disappearing already, so I doubt you mean that you mean eventually sometime in the distant future that our great great great grandchildren will no longer see a middle class. so dont say you mean in the end much later. And what other valid point can I make other than the one when you arent clear on your assumtion that the middle class is disappeaing. When you say that some will leave the middle class while others will enter it. But you are correct I have no right to refute what you say. That privedge in here is exclusively yours.

And what is your goal in this thread? Youre talking out of both sides of your mouth so you cant be called on anything. ''I said this, but I also said this.''. Why not just say that to you, it feels as though the middle class is disappearing? Dont make a claim like you did and throw in some bs percentages, then get all defensive when someone else says your statement that the middle class is disappearing rings untrue. And now you try to cover yourself by saying you meant that sooner or later it will diappear. Well maybe not disappear but it will shift. Well maybe not shift but reamin stagnant. How could one not read all of that into your one sweeping comment?

 

BO's dream:

A ruling class of the liberal elite & a governed class incapable of doing anything except relying on the benevolent hand of the government.

....and it all starts with increased government control over the private sector & the confiscation of an individuals wealth & property.

 

Your inability to understand isn't a reflection on me....

If you come up with any other issues of semantics rather than substance, I'm probably going to pay more attention to those posters that are actually more willing to discuss the topic. Try not to be offended, or do, it's all good.

 

right..right. I know you include your poker winnings in reporting your annual income.....so 70k means you can't be a very good poker player either, since you wouldn't "not" report your "earnings"...would you?

 

My poker winnings are less than 15K per year and they are offset by my losses on the casino floor at pai gow.

 

How can anyone believe $100k a year in earnings constitutes "rich"? If you make $100k you'll only net $60-$65k at best after taxes. If you contribute to your 401k you're down to about $50k then subtract health insurance and you're at what $40-$45k net? Subtract $6000 a year in property taxes?
$100k = Rich? Hardly.