Why does the left view themselves as idealistic eliteist

" lesbian teaching a women's lit class at the community college!!"

I have no problem with that, what I have concerns with is when alternative sex and life styles is being taught in various presentations to elementary,middle and high school students. Now I respect someone's other lifestyle but I do not think that it should be pushed upon our youth just like I do not think that overt heterosexuality should be exhibited as well.

Personally I feel that the left wants to destory this country and one way of achieving that is by eliminating the things that bind us and the things that make us strong. How else will the left gain power. They can't win any major elections and once again I state that there are leftist elements within the democratic party leadership, which is why it lost to a weak Bush, but the rank and file of the party is still moderate.

As for the Patriot Act, please post complete sections where you feel that our civil liberties are being taken away. I feel that is more of a leftist slogan that catches on for it is not properly defended by the Bush Administration. I feel that the Bush Administration has done a poor job with educationing the American people of the threats that we are dealing with and the measures that need to undertaken and how civil rights of "American Citizens" and "Legal Aliens" are being protected.

As for terrorists being breed, look at history. They were there even before the creation of the United States, they were there even before 1492. Why 1492 is actually the time period when the Islamic Moors were finally defeated in Spain where they were spreading Jihad. Terrorism started with the creation of Islam. Read the Koran and you will see what I speak of.

By the way did you noticed what happened in Russia today.

 

"Left wing wants to destroy the country" that is pretty Orwellian, it is the Right wing that has dismantled an objective media ruined the economy and made the USA persona non garta in every country in the world!
BTW there are many problems with the patriot act including John Doe warrants.
Here are a couple of links that outline the serious threat that the patriot act poses to our freedoms:
http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/37/10123
http://www.eff.org/issues/usapa/
The issue of terrorist being created by our Iraq policy should be clear. There were no Iraqi terrorist before the war now our abuses have turned millions of otherwise peaceful people against us.

 

Not to mention most of our former NATO allies.

 

"it is the Right wing that has dismantled an objective media ruined the economy" Danr.

When did the right wing do that? Are you referring to George Bush as being right wing for that would be a joke. He is more of a liberal socialist then anything else when you look at his spending policies and his non-stance on illegal alien abuse in this country.

As for the economy. Well if you haven't noticed that there has been a boom in home ownership in this country and the biggest boom has been shown in what is called the minority community. Look at what you are eating everyday(how many times a week do you eat meat), look at what cars are being driven on the road, look at all of the brand name/designer clothes that people are wearing. The economy is not as bad as you think it is. However, we do live in a society that has become spoiled.

Objective media, ok lets forget everything for the moment and just look up yellow journalism on google. You will find that the media was never objective for one and two the left feels any voice that differs from them is wrong and should not be heard. That is not democracy, (freedom of the press), but the left was never a democratic organization, e.g. Hitler, Stalin, Lenin, Pol Pot, Mao, Castro,The ACLU, etc.......

I will answer the Patriot Act later but I for one do not see a problem with keeping an eye on people who want to kill us or who are suspected of said. That is common sense

Moen:Our Nato allies for the most part were only our allies when they needed us when there was an USSR knocking on their door. Lets face the reality that we are in economic competition with Western Europe and are rivals in alot of world markets. A strong America does not benefit them now.

As for the Iraq terrrorists, it seems to me that more Shia are getting blown up then anyone else so the Iraq's and their Sunni allies are still doing what they always did and that is to suppress and kill Shia. Now if we went into Syria and Saudia Arabia as well as Iraq from the begining then it might be a different picture over there with a better chance of regional democracy being a reality in the arab world. Does the left even know the history of the middle east or ever read the Koran? No and why should they care as long as their organizations are being funded.

 

Oh well, in the 5th century the Visigoths conquered most of the Iberian peninsula, in the 8th century the Moors conquered most of it. According to most sources, the Islamic rulers in Spain (especially the Caliphate of Cordoba in the 10/11c) were much less intolerant towards the Christians and Jews than the "Reyes Catolicos" were towards the Muslims and Jews once the Christians had conquered Southern Spain ...

Christian

 

I feel that I am posting to much in this thread that I started but the leftist responses are once again filled with misinformation which the people stating it are stating it with honest intentions but the source is polluted.


"BTW there are many problems with the patriot act including John Doe warrants."

Roving wiretaps and john doe type warrants have been used way before 911 mainly in the war against drugs and the RICO cases against the Mafia. The point being how can you place a name on a warrent when you do not know the individual's real name and if the individual or group is constantly on the move what is the point of having a stationary wiretap.

law enforcement has been able to use "roving wiretaps" - in which a wiretap authorization attaches to a particular suspect, rather than a particular communications device - to investigate ordinary crimes, including drug offenses and racketeering. The authority to use roving wiretaps in drug cases has existed since 1986. A number of federal courts - including the Second, Fifth, and Ninth Circuits - have squarely ruled that roving wiretaps are perfectly consistent with the Fourth Amendment.

Below is one of many legal documents that were passed by both houses of Congress by both Democrats and Republicans. The stuff can be boring to read so I gave a small portion.

ELECTRONIC COMMUNICATIONS PRIVACY ACT

UNITED STATES CODE


TITLE 18. CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE
PART I--CRIMES
CHAPTER 119--WIRE AND ELECTRONIC COMMUNICATIONS INTERCEPTION AND
INTERCEPTION OF ORAL COMMUNICATIONS

_____________________________

Sec. 2510. Definitions

As used in this chapter--

(1) "wire communication" means any aural transfer made in
whole or in part through the use of facilities for the
transmission of communications by the aid of wire, cable, or
other like connection between the point of origin and the point
of reception (including the use of such connection in a switching
station) furnished or operated by any person engaged in providing
or operating such facilities for the transmission of interstate
or foreign communications for communications affecting interstate
or foreign commerce and such term includes any electronic storage
of such communication;

(2) "oral communication" means any oral communication uttered
by a person exhibiting an expectation that such communication is
not subject to interception under circumstances justifying such
expectation, but such term does not include any electronic
communication;

(3) "State" means any State of the United States, the
District of Columbia, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, and any
territory or possession of the United States;

(4) "intercept" means the aural or other acquisition of the
contents of any wire, electronic, or oral communication through
the use of any electronic, mechanical, or other device;

(5) "electronic, mechanical, or other device" means any
device or apparatus which can be used to intercept a wire, oral,
or electronic communication other than--

It goes on. If you want the full version just go to the Senate's webpage and look it up.

 

ok just and idea i had about iraq. remeber that time a while back when india was having all that trouble between the hindis and the muslims(ok so this was a real long time ago but anyways) well what did the peace loving gandhi work for...a division of the country to make pakistan. well what if there was a divison of iraq where each major group could have there own land.maybe this would only end up in a century long civil war but maybe it could work.

some names ive been working on sunni'berg, shiite'ville,and little ahmadiyya
ok i agree they need work but its a start.

 

rambozo, your idea makes perfect sense and I thought myself that was the best short term solution, meaning a few generations to help get past the hatred and let the thought patterns of democracy take place but Turkey yelled even before we went in not to do that for they do not want the Kurds to have a nation in the north and they themselves have an eye for the oil in that region. Some people state that we should listen to other nations before we take action for we have to be concerned with what they think of us, well I say we are one of the two world powers, China being the other, so we should not worry about what they think but have the mindset that they should worry about what we think and they should want to appease us. If not, no aid, no alliances.
Another issue is that the fear that the Shia to the east will just join up with Iran which will make the Iran military threat closer to the Saudi's whom they hate. But in reality that might be a good thing if we make the Saudi's realize that our protection should not be taken for granted. Then push the Saudi's to stop funding jihad, stop funding groups that undermine our nation, free their women, truly end slavery in their nation and introduce real democracy. The way I feel is the only way this world is going to survive is if democracy takes place in the middle east so why is the left attacking that concept?
They have a right to disagree with how Bush is bringing Democracy into the region, I know I do but at least he is trying. What we need is positive thoughts to for improvement not undermining.

 

Xenophobia is the fear of anything strange, different, or foreign to you. That doesn't mean something that doesn't exist inside your borders. You can be xenophobic when it comes to Jews, even if your neighbor is Jewish, and even though Jews have lived in your country since its inception. That's also why Hitler slaughtered homosexuals, because they're different. Xenophobia is also a tool that can be used to inspire extreme nationalism.

Another thing - I said it is a right wing trait, and it is. It doesn't mean all right-wingers are xenophobic, nor does it mean that nobody on the left is xenophobic. Nobody is being stereotyped here (oustide of the original post). Xenophobia and extreme nationalism were primary platforms for Hitler, which is why he is considered to be extreme right.

This entire thread is meant to bash liberals by twisting Hitler's actions, then comparing him to the left - if you want to talk about generalizations, there you go.

 

Hitler was a nationalist socialist. His party which he joined and later rose to be it's leader was The National Socialistic German Workers Party. This is not discussed to much in our text books but then again in our text books Islam is protrayed as a religion of love. If you don't believe me, look it up outside of school textbooks and liberal writings but on historical records. Hitler had deviates surrounding him like the left usually does. The leader of the SA, which made sure everyone was politically correct and beat up killed etc people who spoke out against Hitler before he even gained power, was 3 million strong and was led by Roehm a homosexual who had orgies with the high ranking officers of his SA para military group. Hitler had Goering who he later appointed to head the luftwaffle as a long time ally. Goering was a known drug addict. Hitler had Himmler to head the SS. Himmer was known for his lack of passion and more for his torture, I guess S&M, of his forced partners. It goes on and I know Hitler had his ex-friend Roehm killed but that is what the left does when it gets power. It kills to stay in power and it will kill anyone who threatens their power. Hitler was a socialist, not an idealist but a left-wing nationalistic socialist who of course betrayed some of the socialist values but what left-wing socialist leader didn't when they had their goal of absolute power.

By the way we live in a conservative socialistic nation. Not pure socialism but a socialistic society. Just look at all of the government programs that we have in place and all of the government restrictions that we have on business. I guess the left wants to get rid of the conservative aspect so it can do it's havoc.

And for the record once again, Hitler was not a conservative. He was a deviate left wing nationalist socialist.

Like it or not the left wing is no better then the extreme right wing and thank God for conservatives and moderates who keep the balance or at least try to


Hitler was also a pagan by the way. He would have gotten upset with me saying thank god just like the left gets upset if Grace is said over a free thanksgiving meal for the homeless at the Salvation Army Headquarters. "How dare they, make sure no federal dollars for them",Thats the left.

 

Hitler was a socialist, no if's ands or buts about it. Socialism is a leftist trait. Hitler was completely familiar with jews. If you knew your history you would know that.

 

Which is probably why his government arrested, tortured and killed so many communists and socialists ... And if you look at which parties were part of Hitler's first coalition, or which parties voted for the Ermächtigungsgesetz (the act about the "self-amputation" of the national parliament), well, that was neither the KPD nor the SPD.

What does "being familiar" mean in this context? Sure, had he never heard about Jews, he would not have believed that they should be exterminated ...

Christian

 

Sometimes I just don't get it.. left, right, red state, blue state. It's the same 17.8% of this nation's "most literate" who waver between voting for Clinton in 96 and Bush in 2000. It's all packaging, the same voters putting in diametrically opposed candidates based on "who doesn't sweat in debates" and whose "rhetorical nonsense rings current topical bells"

As for where the U.S. in general sits on the evil world fence, personally I think we as a nation based on our history and inclination are just as close to setting up camps and ovens in mid Tennessee (i.e. (the so called right) the great west and our treatment of native americans), as we are Gulag's in Utah (the so called right) political gangs and regional troublemakers (i.e. Japanese in WWII, uncontrolled rioters in 1991, and the current clash or rich vs. poor seen in the aftermath of Katrina, and currently in Iraq).

There is a point where left is no different from right. No matter which direction you go you have the same solution. My take is Americans need to get smarter, read, learn, not take the gospel from Limbaugh or Crossfire, and prove to the world that the most powerful nation in the history of mankind is not rhetoric driven herds of sheep, but as our founding fathers envisioned a literate, logical open minded society capable of showing the world what is truly right and wrong.

<shrug> .02 GlacierMI

 

man you just had to bring up his name didnt you... i hate rush so much it hurts.he imo is just like bill maher.they both speak as if everything they say is absolute truth with out question. and also the way 90% of anthing they say is just bad mouthing the other(left/right) side. all either one of them are doing is driving a even bigger wedge between the people of this country.

 

"There is a point where left is no different from right. No matter which direction you go you have the same solution" GlacierMI.

Which is my point yet the left acts and is treated like idealistic elite.

"Which is probably why his government arrested, tortured and killed so many communists and socialists ... And if you look at which parties were part of Hitler's first coalition, or which parties voted for the Ermächtigungsgesetz (the act about the "self-amputation" of the national parliament), well, that was neither the KPD nor the SPD."Christian.

Yes what you say is true Christian, but did not Stalin do the same thing. From killing the Communist Mayor of Saint Petersburg to having the exiled Trotsky murdered with an ice pick in Mexico. And to go deeper did not Stalin have a political terror against the "old Bolsheviks" who led the revolution by killing them off including general Tukachevsky who had led the red army against the white army. With Stalin one can go on forever with how he killed fellow communists, socialist, etc...Any one who was a potential threat to his absolute power, same as the nationalistic leftwing socialist Hitler.

And speaking of terror of the left did not Lenin and the Bolsheviks themselves round up all the Mensheviks their old leftist allies for them to end their lives in gulags and were not also the Socialist Revolutionary Party members given the same fate by the Bolshiviks in power. The far left does not like competition for that is not "politically correct".
Hitler was no different from any other leftist leader who gained absolute power.
Cut out the competition even if it is other leftist groups for they become rivals. Only one line of thought allowed.

Rambo: neither of the two men you mentioned would I ever have a drink with.
Unless it was good scotch, then I'll have an excuse to drink it to drown out their voices.

 

cheers

 

Well Andy, my take on all of this is more New vs. Old World to a degree. Not to poo-poo European governmental instiutions, but Europe was run by one continuous guiding force "tradition". In my opinion the legitimate government of Russia from 1917-1991 was acting the same as it had been for the previous 600 years. The people had no vote or say in the government. The "leftist" Communist regime under Stalin acted not one iota different from the "rightest Holy Russia" regime of Ivan the Terrible. The only difference is that the current tsar had modern technology and new ways of torture while in the 1400's it was done the old fashioned way. I think the same holds true for Nazi Germany. German history had changed little from Charlemagne to Hitler. A little badly run 16 year democratic experiment between the wars couldn't change the age old history of the way the german people thought.

On the other hand, the U.S. has no background of tyranny. If it did, there certainly wouldn't have been a revolution. We are products of the Magna Carta and always will be. I'm just a firm believer that the resolve of the American people has slowly been eroded by the same republicanism that formed them. It is so easy to follow a demogogue, it is quite another thing to have the rights and privileges to better yourself and not use them.

 

ok kinda off topic but maybe not. everyone here seems to be on the same page as hitler,stalin and pol pot being the figure heads of incredibly dark times.but i was thinking, and was wondering what was behind the spanish inquisition (leftist or right. i honestly dont know).i think this was one of the darkest periods in history and shouldnt be overshadowed by hitler and stalin.

 

I always thought him to be something of a fascist...

 

No doubt, Stalin was a ruthless dictator. And of course there are similar traits between "left" and "right" dictatorships. In many regards, the results (once a regime has been established) are about the same - people who have a dissenting opinion are arrested or killed, entire (ethnic or social) groups are declared "enemies of the people", and so on.

I just wonder why anybody would insist so much on calling the nazis "socialists" or refer to Hitler as being left wing. Makes as much sense as calling Stalin's or Mao's regimes right wing ...

Christian